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tinkerfive

30-30 Mosin Nagant ?

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The previous Mosin Nagant sporter thread reminded me of something I've had

in the back of my mind for a while.

 

My very first mil surplus to sporter was a M44.

I've tried everything and the best I can get from it is around 2-3MOA.

 

While I don't particularly mind the fireball you get from a carbine length

barrel with 7.62X54R, it's damn loud!

 

I've got a few .30 cal Remington take off barrels and was thinking about

possibly rebarreling the M44.

 

I hadn't checked into it too much ( too many Mausers in line first ), I was

just wondering what the collective wisdom of my fellow board members

had to think about the idea.

 

Thanks!!

Tinker

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I don't know if this is in fact true, but I have heard from everyone that has talked about it that the barrels are nearly impossible if not totally impossible to remove from these guns. Now I am not saying it cannot be done, because obviously many hundreds of thousands were done by the arsenols. If it is doable, I myself would like to know because with the cheap rifles and the possibilities they offer I would sure get set up to do so. They would be great for most rimmed cartridges. If there are those that have rebarreled them please tell us what you know about it. swamp_thing

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Why not reload the cartridge with a mild faster powder and lighter load?

 

4198 and RL7 and excellent powders to play with to eliminate the muzzle blast. You can handload to any 30-30 velocity you'd want.

 

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i worked on this for several days..the bolt face is easy to modify but the feed ramp

was my problem..i even reworked the cartidge hold down lever so it would hold the smaller case ..but never over came the ramp problem..the bolt passes though

the ramp so you just can"t narrow it up..i"m sure some bright smith has over came this problem some how..a .44 mag looks like a better bet..

i:ve take barrels off 2 , did"t have any problems..

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Thanks sonic1 for the reply. This confirms that they can be changed. Guess I will have to think a bit harder about getting a couple of donor receivers to play with. swamp_thing

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I like the faster powder idea.

 

You've probably already figured this out but it took me a bunch of barn door groups before I figured-out that 0.312 bullets were better in the MN. My M38 went from trading fodder to coveted accurate milsurp.

 

I use the .312 150 gr Hornady SP at 2.940 OAL over 53 gr AA4350 (it still breathes fire). Its almost as accurate as my Garand, and I bet if the sights were as good it might be better.

 

If I were going to rebarrel I'd be thinking of something dramatic - like a .444 Marlin or .405 Win or 45-70. You can always load down, sometimes its fun to be able to load up too.

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Tinker,

 

Contact Clark. I seem to remember that he rebarreled a MN to 30-30 not too long ago. I further remember that he said it didn't feed worth beans and ended up rather frustrated with the whole project.

 

Don't freeze to death before I get up there... huh.gif

 

Jason

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Be prepared to do some boltface work. the .30-30 rim is only like 512" while the MN is closer to .550".

 

I'd do like everyone else said and just download if you want a .30-caliber.

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Ya'll just aren't going to rest till you get me started back into that danged MN project are you? rolleyes.gif

 

Some of you may remember me messing with an M44 some time ago. Changed the barrel to a 444Marlin - yup, the barrels DO come off, they're tight but doable. There are two major stumbling blocks to MN conversions as opposed to something like a Mauser.

 

First off, as z1r said, there is the bolt face and extractor. The 7.62x54R has a massive head size for a small to medium bore cartridge. My original idea was for a 30-30 to, but I think the difficulty in reducing the bolt face and re-positioning the extractor would be more trouble than its worth if even possible. Especially when M340 Savages in 30-30 regularly sell for $200 or less.

 

Secondly, again as someone already pointed out, the magazine is also specifically designed for this unusual size and shaped cartridge. Adapting it to something else is a nightmare! In fact it was the magazine "issues" that finally prompted me to put mine aside until someday when I have more time and patience.

 

On the plus side - it made a neat little, well balanced, big bore carbine. I used a "new" but long stored away M94 Win. barrel from Numrich that only cost me a few bucks - around thirty as I recall. The shank was too small and required some "inventive measures" but once screwed together the few test shots I fired with it (about 50) proved accurate and recoil, while stout, was manageable in the "supposed to be walnut but turned out to be stained hardwood" stock I got from center fire systems.

 

If I HAD TO make a recommendation to someone who insisted on building a sporter on one of these, my advise to would be to stick with the original chambering. There is a lot of potential in the rifles themselves and much of their inherent ugliness can be improved, but due to the peculiarities of the cartridge, the alternative choices are slim to nil unless you have a lot more time and money than most folks.

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Well, having had time to mull this all over and already being a fan of the 7.62x54r I have to say I agree that leaving them in the original caliber is the way to go. As for sportering them you all already know that I am a MN junkie. I do like them as they come from the factory and am even more fond of the sported versions. Something about that hump stock is hard to get used to. It does grow on a fellow with time though.

There is also an advantage to sporterizing the Mosins that most don't consider. Since very few people are into them the market is overwhelmed with good specimans. Maybe I should quit trying to talk others into doing this!! laugh.gif swamp_thing

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I wasn't a big fan of the M-N until I bought a Finnish M39 with a good bore for cheap, and found that it shot as good as I could hold it at 100 yards with the cheap Romanian ball ammo that comes in the big sardine can. Tight groups are the beer googles for me when it comes to cosmetically "interesting" looking rifles.

I wonder if a cartridge like the .450 Alaskan, or something like it, based on the .348 Winchester case, would work without as many problems.

 

Byron

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The biggest problem with coverting to another cartridge is the magazine.

 

The 7.62 X 54R is a short, fat, stubby thing. Actually, discounting the rim, I think it's a damn, fine cartridge. It performs almost as well as the '06 in terms of out-of-the-muzzle performance.

 

The M-N magazine is made specifically for this cartridge. Anything with a longer body or larger diameter caliber just won't work as-is.

 

I think an easy solution to getting a different cartridge to feed is the .405 Win. The rim and base diameters are VERY close. The .405 is around 0.100" longer, but that's close. I'd do the following:

 

1. saw the magazine immediately behind the integral magazine feed ramp.

 

2. mill or file the feed ramp 0.100 deeper, add the bevel incline back.

 

3. individually heat each side of the magazine shoulder stop red, then flatten between two steel plates, eliminating the shoulder.

 

4. weld the two magazine parts together again (eliminating the shoulder should lengthen the rear of the magaine enough so the two parts will meet or actually overlap a bit.

 

5. mill the underside of the reciever opening to match the taper of the .405 (plus the width of the magazine walls).

 

6. assemble the mess, check for feeding, and tweak as necessary.

 

7. open the magazine opening in the stock to accomidate the wider magazine.

 

Half hour job, right? Heh. No, it'll take some work. I don't view this as that different than shortening a M1917 magazine box, straightening the bottom strap, and re-drilling the forward guard screw hole. Where there's a whip, there's a way.

 

The .405 would be very fun in an M-N. It's probably the closest fit of any cartridge, other than a wildcat based on the 7.62X54R.

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"assemble the mess, check for feeding, and tweak as necessary"

 

Your "idea" is pretty much what I did with my 444Marlin project. Used a length of square bar stock inside the heated magazine to re-shape it though. It was the

" check for feeding, and tweak as necessary" part that finally sent her to the back of the rack though. Take my word for it, "tweak" is a very conservative term for what it takes to make these things feed with fat, blunt cartridges! blink.gif

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MorganBoss:

 

The M-N follower assembly is a marvel, isn't it? When running the heavier rounds through the magazine, I wonder if the follower springs are strong enough to lift the bullet end of the cartridge?

 

I'd love to see some details photos of what you've done. My M-N is just sitting here, waiting for something to be done to it.

 

I have an old American Rifleman article in which the author notched the receiver after the stripper clip guide and moved the bolt handle back accordingly. Much easier to manipulate, and expands the scope base opportunities. A rear base could potentially straddle the clip guide hump.

 

I picked my M-44 up for a song at a show. It's a Polish model (so I was told) and in very nice condition. I'm very impressed with the metalwork and function. Much better looking than some of the WWII era Russian models I've seen.

 

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Guest z1r in Tx

Me, when I finally cave in and build a Mosin it will be with a .308 bore barrel and slightly tight neck. Then, I can use all the great .308 match grade bullets out there.

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z1r, I guess you are saying that you would stick with the 7.62x54r cartridge necked down to the 308? That would certainly solve all the feeding problems while opening up a much larger field of bullet choices for these rifles. In fact, the lee dies come with a 308 expander so it would be ready for such loadings. What would you do for a reamer? Would you have one made to chamber for the 308 neck? swamp_thing

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To get the 91/30 to 45/70 single shot, I had to grind a special tool to open the bolt face.

I have shot that gun.

 

The $15 like new Win 94 barrel from gunparts took some real math to make a bushing the would make headspace AND get the sight dovetails to line up without using a reamer.

And then there is the milling the extractor relief.

my next to the Russian's cut

 

That gun is a single shot, but I have not shot it yet.

 

I had no hopes of getting the wrong rimmed case to feed. The Finns put a dimple in the magazine to try to get the 7.62x53R to feed, and it is the right cartridge!

 

So far I have a VZ24 that feeds 300 Win Mag, and that was hard enough.

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Has anyone sent out to change an barrel from an military to an target barrel that will shot 308 bullets?? I was thinking of doing just that to ER Shaw.

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Guest z1r in TX

Swampthing,

 

Yeah, pretty much just a .308 version. I'd get PTG to grind me a reamer. You could simply get a removavble pilot version and get a .300" bushing bvut it would be better with a tighter neck as you surmised. I'd check with PTG to see their custom grind price but I bet it is cheaper to buy a solid pilot ptg from Midway, then send it to PTG to have them convert it to removable pilot and at the same time ask him to regrind the neck. I'd send him a copuple of cases run through your die with bullets seated so he can grind the proper clearance.

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Guest Guest_roscoedoh_*

Strangley enough, I proposed doing just this not two years ago and back then, everyone thought I was nuts.

 

Funny how things change...

 

I still like the idea of an open sighted Mosin carbine that uses .308" bullets. Put it in a Mannlicher style stock and use a Mannlicher or Enfield bolt handle - blued - and go shooting.

 

Jason

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Jason, when I did my first sporter on one of these almost three years ago, seems everyone I knew thought I had lost my mind. Of course, it goes without saying you cannot lose what you don't have!! Now, almost three years later I am seeing more and more of them being done. I think it is like anything else, when you flood the market with specimans and give it some time, people will start to think of ways to change and improve on them. They may never be as commonly sportered as a mauser or even and enfield, but there is a certain amount of folks that will do so. As time goes on and more aftermarket parts begin to show up for them, it will be more common than it is now. They do make a dang fine rifle with the right work. When the finished product pictures appear on posts and others see what they can be, it will help them to take the plunge as well. swamp_thing

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Strangley enough, I proposed doing just this not two years ago and back then, everyone thought I was nuts.

 

Funny how things change...

 

I still like the idea of an open sighted Mosin carbine that uses .308" bullets.  Put it in a Mannlicher style stock and use a Mannlicher or Enfield bolt handle - blued - and go shooting. 

 

Jason

9026[/snapback]

Jason

 

In our conversation you'd mentioned the concern that someone who might later

get the rifle, load it with a 7.62 (.311) X54R.

Later it occured to me that you might stamp the chamber with .308 X 54R.

At least if you stamp the chamber as such someone with a lick of common sense

should at least think twice about what they try to load the rifle with.

 

I mean if a rifle chamber is marked 7MM - 08, you wouldn't try to load a .308 into

it would you?

 

tinker

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If you use a regular reamer with a .308 barrel then using standard 7.62x54 ammo would be fine. I might be inclined to go this route simply for the option of using factory/surplus ammo. My main interest would be for the better bul;et selection in .30 caliber vs .31. I'm not into match grade that much.

 

If you opt for the tighter necked version specific to a .308 bore then stamp it 7.62x54R (.308 bore).

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All,

 

The plan as I remember it was to come up with a reamer that would cut a long throat similar to the throat in my 30-06 that would allow a .311" bullet to squeeze down to .308" diameter should someone try to chamber a real 7.62x54r. This is what Ruger used to do with their Mini-30's and what I'd do should I ever decide to tackle a job such as this. I would of course duly make the barrel for the proper bullet in the exact manner Tinker suggested or simply:

 

7.62x54r

Warning: .308 Bore. Uses .308" bullets.

 

Or something similar. I think that if I could find an engraver to properly execute it, this would look great.

 

I am presently debating whether or not I'd actually care to tackle such a job as I still have too many Mausers needing my time and money, I am looking to ramp up the quality of my end results by about an order of magnitude, and I honestly don't even have the time to do any of it presently.

 

Still, I think it would be a fun and rewarding project and one that the average joe could do in only a little spare time and one that can get done cheaply. The only expense really is getting someone to thread the barrel and cut the extractor cut in the breech face. The rest is almost plug 'n play and even cheaper when you consider that Lee sells a die set that comes with a .308" expander ball. Couple that with a Lee .308 crimp die and you'd be in business...

 

I do try and tackle this, it'll be one of those "after I find a job" projects. Who knows when that'll be?

 

Jason

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