trobi Posted January 10, 2007 Report Share Posted January 10, 2007 can't open or close bolt easily with the safety off.it is very difficult. with safety on it cycles great.if i take the timney trigger off i still have the problem unless i have the safety on. this the original safety. i tried a second bolt and had the same results. Now, both of these bolt have had their handles worked on. 1 was forged and the other supposedly had a new handle welded on(i have my doubts) both look very profesional. i did grind the reciever down so that the bolt closes. is it possible that i have to grind some more? i don't want to grind to much or am i looking at other problems. the original bolt worked good before the work. does something need to be heat treated< seems like i've seen something like this before. thanks, kingsman OPERA NON VERBA Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Racepres Posted January 10, 2007 Report Share Posted January 10, 2007 1st be careful not to take too much off when "relieving" for the turned down bolt! A search here will bring it up, but basically, the bolt must stop rotation at a point where the top locking lug is at TDC of the rcvr. That said, I have to suspect something w/ the cocking piece is causing your problem, since it is the only element "removed" w/ the safety on! Just for grins, I would first ensure that all is good w/o the shroud/fp in place, then is it OK w/ the shroud on but no F.P. or cocking piece. After that I guess I would simply scream and pull my hair out!!! Seriously tho, that is where I would start. MV Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
724wd Posted January 10, 2007 Report Share Posted January 10, 2007 what parts have you replaced? is this the same firing pin? cocking piece? shroud? i have one firing pin that somehow got a burr on it, and caused extremely hard bolt lift. the relationship between the cocking piece and the firing pin is crucial. also, the fit of the cocking piece and the shroud can have an effect. and, then there is the possibility of a softened cocking cam on the bolt(s), but since you have the same problem with 2 bolts, i would look at the smaller, cheaper parts first. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bilurey Posted January 10, 2007 Report Share Posted January 10, 2007 How about a process of elimination. First, eliminate any more grinding of the receiver, a ruined receiver and you may as well toss out the barreled action and start over as it's generally to expensive to restart. Completely strip both bolts. Using a micrometer or Vernier caliper measure the diameter of the rear bolt ring (it's larger than the main shaft). If warped out-of-round during updates it may rub against the underside of the safety when in the on position. Rear of bolt body may be heat warped or have excess weld added behind the bolt handle causing bolt shroud to bind when fully forward. Remove the bolt lock pin and string from the bolt shroud, then see if the shroud screws easily into the rear of the bolt. If not, out of round rear of bolt may be the problem, or excess weld on rear bolt root flat may be it. If no problem here, insert safety into shroud and see if bolt handle turns from closed to opened position easily, try again with safety in the on position. It may be that the cut in the rear bolt ring, for the safety shaft is slightly out of line with the tunnel in the bolt shroud which aligns them. Too little clearance on the bottom bolt root flat, or the rear blot root flat, would keep the bolt from rotating completely in line with the safety shaft tunnel in the bolt shroud, causing a wedging action between the safety shaft and it's cut in the rear face of the bolt. With the safety on, the wedge situation might be alieviated. With safety removed, align shroud in the closed position on the bolt and see if you can see a misalignment. Will the safety shaft slide easily all the way into its tunnel or does it stop short of full seating. Remove bolt shroud and insert completely stripped bolts in receiver, try raising and lowering bolts. If the welder did not trim back enough weld on the front face of the bolt root flat, it will bind. If not enough weld removed from the bottom bolt root flat, it will not close completely. Both will cause misalighment of safety, binding results. One of these tests will show the problem. Did you sent the barreled action along when you sent out the bolts out to be altered? If not welder may have been left to guess about final fit and function. If you did, he should correct the problem. Good luck, Bill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sonic1 Posted January 10, 2007 Report Share Posted January 10, 2007 .x Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trobi Posted January 11, 2007 Author Report Share Posted January 11, 2007 How about a process of elimination. First, eliminate any more grinding of the receiver, a ruined receiver and you may as well toss out the barreled action and start over as it's generally to expensive to restart. Completely strip both bolts. Using a micrometer or Vernier caliper measure the diameter of the rear bolt ring (it's larger than the main shaft). If warped out-of-round during updates it may rub against the underside of the safety when in the on position. Rear of bolt body may be heat warped or have excess weld added behind the bolt handle causing bolt shroud to bind when fully forward. Remove the bolt lock pin and string from the bolt shroud, then see if the shroud screws easily into the rear of the bolt. If not, out of round rear of bolt may be the problem, or excess weld on rear bolt root flat may be it. If no problem here, insert safety into shroud and see if bolt handle turns from closed to opened position easily, try again with safety in the on position. It may be that the cut in the rear bolt ring, for the safety shaft is slightly out of line with the tunnel in the bolt shroud which aligns them. Too little clearance on the bottom bolt root flat, or the rear blot root flat, would keep the bolt from rotating completely in line with the safety shaft tunnel in the bolt shroud, causing a wedging action between the safety shaft and it's cut in the rear face of the bolt. With the safety on, the wedge situation might be alieviated. With safety removed, align shroud in the closed position on the bolt and see if you can see a misalignment. Will the safety shaft slide easily all the way into its tunnel or does it stop short of full seating. Remove bolt shroud and insert completely stripped bolts in receiver, try raising and lowering bolts. If the welder did not trim back enough weld on the front face of the bolt root flat, it will bind. If not enough weld removed from the bottom bolt root flat, it will not close completely. Both will cause misalighment of safety, binding results. One of these tests will show the problem. Did you sent the barreled action along when you sent out the bolts out to be altered? If not welder may have been left to guess about final fit and function. If you did, he should correct the problem. Good luck, Bill i did as you suggested and i found that the stripped bolt with the shroud on it i can't drop the safety in position. i can look in it and see back edge of bolt covering part of the tunnel. istarted to remove part of bolt root and it has gotten alot better. what i do notice is that when i start to close the fully assembled bolt it seems to lock and then it's stiff to close. as i close the bolt handle down it pulls the bolt forward. didn't notice this before handle work. by the way, all the bolt parts are original but did not send reciever when work was done. smith didn't requist it. am i on the right track and just have to take a little more off the root thanks, kingsman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
z1r Posted January 11, 2007 Report Share Posted January 11, 2007 Did you notch the receiver? If so be sure to check it. It is supspicious that the bolt moves forward when you close it. Check to see that the bolt is not hitting the receiver notch and being moved forward. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trobi Posted January 11, 2007 Author Report Share Posted January 11, 2007 Did you notch the receiver? If so be sure to check it. It is supspicious that the bolt moves forward when you close it. Check to see that the bolt is not hitting the receiver notch and being moved forward. Z I did notch the reciever but I don't want to relieve it too much and ruin the reciever. How do I know what the limit is.? If I relieve the reciever won't it create a problem when I put the new stock on it? kingsman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
z1r Posted January 11, 2007 Report Share Posted January 11, 2007 Do a search here. We covered this topic in very good detail not long ago. I believe it is the first topic in one of the archives. What kind of problem would notching the receiver cause? Here it is. the link is in that thread. Madjack is right about using the extrcator slot as a guide but it does not tell about proper fore and aft clearance for the handle. Which sounds like it may be your problem or one of them anyway. http://www.sporterizing.com/index.php?showtopic=3357 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bilurey Posted January 11, 2007 Report Share Posted January 11, 2007 Perhaps you should continue working on the back face of the bolt root until the unassembled shroud/bolt assembly lines up perfectly when turned by hand between the open and closed position and the safety drops into place easily. as later when the spring is put back in, any lack of final polishing will show up Next, look for front and bottom bolt root face obstructions which may be binding the bolt on closure. Too much weld on the front face of the bolt root flat will stop the forward movement of the bolt prematurely, thus binding the lugs against their beveled cuts in the front receiver ring. Look at the top edge of the front face of the bolt root flat, this should not be at right angles with the top flat of the bolt root. There should be a bevel cut all the way across the point where these two flats meet. This angle coinsides with the diagonal cut in the top of the rear receiver ring, permitting the bolt root leading top edge to bear against the diagonal cut in the rear receiver ringto increase leverage on extraction of a fired cartridge. Also, proper receiver grooving for the bolt handle. So, how do we tell whether the bolt cut in the receiver in not deep enough to permit the bolt to close, or, the bolt cut in the receiver is cut too far back and is pulling the bolt back thus wedging the locking lugs, or whether the front bolt root face sticks out to far and needs to be carefully filed back to avoid wedging the locking lugs. I would try using a majic marker and inking up the front face of the bolt root flat, the underside of the bolt root flat (which determines how far the bolt can be turned down) and the portion of the bolt handle shaft which fits into the groove in the receiver, as well as the groove itself. Now gently insert the stripped bolt back into it's fully open position in the receiver. Next, push as hard as possible against the bolt knob and begin to lower it. As soon as the objectionable "binding" is felt, stop and reopen the bolt handle while pulling back as hard as possible on the knob until the bolt is in it's open position. Carefully remove the unassembled bolt from the receiver being careful that this operation doesn't leave marks on the inked surfaces. Inspect the inked surfaces carefully. The binding will have rubbed off the ink at the point(s) where it occures. Remember, the shaft of the bolt must NEVER touch any portion of it's groove under even the greatest pressure, otherwise it becomes a fourth locking lug which is most undesirable. The bright marks on the inked surfaces will tell you where the binding is. The most common cause is insufficient clearance for the bolt bolt handle, and, the lack of a bevel at the junction of the front and top bolt root flats. Remove a little metal, re-ink, try again. When the puddles of your persperation begin running into your shoe tops you're getting close. A good test is to screw in the stripped bolt shroud after a smooth fit of the stripped bolt is acheived. With the bolt closed, the Safety Tunnel in the bolt shroud should be in perfect alignment with the cut in the rear of the bolt face. This is a way of assuring the bolt has been rotated to it's proper "seated" position for it's locking lugs to bear against their seats, a very impartant point. You've really caught on quickly, keep going and you'll be writing these unpublished "How To" books very shortly. New torch bearers are not a luxery, they're a necessity. Bill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trobi Posted January 12, 2007 Author Report Share Posted January 12, 2007 i worked a little on bolt clouser problem tonight with little success. i used a dremel and worked on the bottom root and front root.maybr i'm trying to be to carefull. if i put the stripped bolt in,it will fall into the locked down position with gravity. if i put the stripped sleeve on it will do the same. the safety tnnel shows no type of obstruction. the safety willmove easily in fact it seems loose. now, if i completly assemble the bolt and insert it into the reciever with the safety off, i canpush bolt forward easily and it will stop when it touchs the back of reciever. as i close the bolt there is a little stiffness and then the bolt will initially lock . when it does this, the bolt will actually move slightly to rear. i then have to push bolt forward and down to lock bolt. when i go pull back i have to pull bolt up and willraise ( with effort) until it locks. i then hve to push a little forward to finish raising bolt up. it then pulls to the rear effortlly. if i repeart this with safety on everything works smoothly. Now, i did notice when i had the reciever on my lap and watching everything move, that when i released the safety that it took more effort than i had expected and that the cocking piece would move up. when i putt the saftey on it was stiff and the cocking piece looked like it was being pulled or canted down. am i still dealling with a binding safety. i don't have alot hair that i can pull out. i was thinking about buying a stripped bolt and assemble it and watch everything function . hate to buy a bolt then i'll have to buy another reciever. can't have a lonely bolt. anymore suggestions, kingsman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
donmarkey Posted January 12, 2007 Report Share Posted January 12, 2007 Check to see if the bolt sleeve lock or spring is too long. Does the bolt sleeve lock slide in easily or do you have to use a tool to install it. You should be able to put it in with the pressure of your thumb. I had a few locks I had to trim down and chamfer the end. Just food for thought. -Don Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trobi Posted January 13, 2007 Author Report Share Posted January 13, 2007 Check to see if the bolt sleeve lock or spring is too long. Does the bolt sleeve lock slide in easily or do you have to use a tool to install it. You should be able to put it in with the pressure of your thumb. I had a few locks I had to trim down and chamfer the end. Just food for thought. -Don i went back and looked at the bolt sleeve lock and spring and was able to push it with my finger but it took alittle effort. i decided to put a shorter spring in it. this one with a wolf spring kit. reassembled the bolt and it made a big difference. it still isn't buttery smooth like my tika t3 but i live with it. i'll work on reciever smoothing it a bit and see if it gets better. when i sent this bolt out, i completly striped it and sent only what i wanted polished. when i got it back the bolt sleeve was togetherwith a spring. i'm wondering if he accidently put a wrong spring in it. does this sound logical? what is the best way of smoothing bolt rails?i don"t want to take to much off. i relly don't want to have to heat treat this reciever if i don't have to. thanks to everyone that has contributed. you can bet i'll have other questions. in fact there will be another one on a barrel i see for sale kingsman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bilurey Posted January 13, 2007 Report Share Posted January 13, 2007 The new spring you got back with the bolt may have been for the spring for the magazine lock stud which holds the floorplate in place, they're about the same diameter as the bolt shroud stud spring and can be very stiff. Donmarky's idea was a good one. The bolt shroud lock stud gets hammered every time the bolt is closed and it tends to wear down it's nose and /or pound a dent in the rear of the receiver ring where it touches. This has the effect of lengthening it's stroke and causing it's "stop" ring to stick out to far to permit the bolt body to turn properly. Did you use marking ink on the under side of the bolt handle, on it flat seat and the shaft of the handle, prior to trying to close a fully assembled bolt? I've got a strong feeling that z1r touched on the problem of the groove for the bolt handle needing to be relieved in the front, but, relieved very carefully. Try this, cut a 1/4x5 inch strip from a cigarette pack wrapper or potatoe chip bag, both are very thin but very strong and make great "feelers". With the assembled bolt fully seated in the receiver, slide this strip underneath the bolt handle and try to slide it all the way up to the bottom flat of the bolt root on which the bolt is resting. It should pass freely, if not, try sliding the strip up diagonally to see it's the front, back, or both sides of the bolt handle binding. Then go back to inking those surfaces of the bolt flat, handle, and groove then closing the inserted, assembled bolt. You may find that the binding is occuring in a place different than you thought. Go easy! I'd skip the Dremel at this point and use fine files or emery paper wrapped around pencils or dowels to avoid taking off too much. Also, as a double check, when you reassemble the bolt leave the safety off. Now seat the bolt fully into the receiver and see if the bolt shroud's safety tunnel still aligns with the cut in the rear of the bolt for the safety. Adding a firing pin spring really changes the tension on the bolt parts and may cause misalignment not appearent when the parts are loose and floppy. Bill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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