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Today's War


fritz

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Sixty-three years ago, Nazi Germany had overrun almost all of

>>> Europe and hammered England to the verge of bankruptcy and defeat,

>>> and had

>>> sunk more than four hundred British ships in their convoys between

>>> England and America for food and war materials. At that time the US

>>> was in an isolationist, pacifist mood, and most Americans wanted

>>> nothing to do with the European or the Asian war.

 

>>> Then along came Pearl Harbor on December 7, 1941, and in outrage

>>> Congress unanimously declared war on Japan, and the following day on

>>> Germany, which had not yet attacked us. It was a dicey thing. We

>>> had few allies.

>>>

France was not an ally, as the Vichy government of France

quickly

>>> aligned itself with its German occupiers. Germany was certainly not

>>> an ally, as Hitler was intent on setting up a Thousand Year Reich in

>>> Europe. Japan was not an ally, as it was well on its way to owning

>>> and controlling all of Asia. Together, Japan and Germany had

>>> long-range plans of invading Canada and Mexico, as launching pads to

>>> get into the United States over our northern and southern borders,

>>> after they finished gaining control of Asia and Europe. America's

>>> only allies then were England, Ireland, Scotland, Canada, Australia,

>>> and Russia. That was about it. All of Europe, from Norway to

>>> Italy, except Russia in the East, was already under the Nazi heel.

>>> America was certainly not prepared for war. America had

>>> drastically downgraded most of its military forces after WWI and

>>> throughout the

>>> depression, so that at the outbreak of WWII, army units were

>>> training with broomsticks because they didn't have guns, and cars

>>> with "tank" painted on the doors because they didn't have real

>>> tanks. And a huge chunk of our navy had just been sunk or damaged

>>> at Pearl Harbor.

 

>>> Britain had already gone bankrupt, saved only by the donation of

>>> $600 million in gold bullion in the Bank of England, that was

>>> actually the property of Belgium, given by Belgium to England to

>>> carry on the war when Belgium was overrun by Hitler (a little known

>>> fact). Actually, Belgium surrendered on one day, because it was

>>> unable to oppose the German invasion, and the Germans bombed

>>> Brussels into rubble the next day just to prove they could. Britain

>>> had already been holding out for two years in the face of staggering

>>> losses and the near decimation of its air force in the Battle of

>>> Britain, and was saved from being overrun by Germany only because

>>> Hitler made the mistake of thinking the Brits were a relatively

>>> minor threat that could be dealt with later, and first turning his

>>> attention to Russia, at a time when England was on the verge of

>>> collapse, in the late summer of 1940.

 

>>> Ironically, Russia saved America's butt by putting up a desperate

>>> fight for two years, until the US got geared up to begin hammering

>>> away at Germany. Russia lost something like 24 million people in

>>> the sieges of Stalingrad and Moscow alone... 90% of them from cold

>>> and starvation, mostly civilians, but also more than a 1,000,000

>>> soldiers.

 

>>> Had Russia surrendered, Hitler would have been able to focus his

>>> entire war effort against the Brits, then America. And the Nazis

>>> could possibly have won the war.

 

>>> All of this is to illustrate that turning points in history are

>>> often dicey things. And now, we find ourselves at another one of

>>> those key moments in history.

 

>>> There is a very dangerous minority in Islam that either has, or

>>> wants and may soon have, the ability to deliver small nuclear,

>>> biological, or chemical weapons, almost anywhere in the world.

 

>>> The Jihadis, the militant Muslims, are basically Nazis in

>>> Kaffiyahs

>>> -- they believe that Islam, a radically conservative form of Wahhabi

>>> Islam, should own and control the Middle East first, then Europe,

>>> then the world. And that all who do not bow to their will of

>>> thinking should be killed, enslaved, or subjugated. They want to

>>> finish the Holocaust, destroy Israel, and purge the world of Jews.

>>> This is their mantra.

 

>>> There is also a civil war raging in the Middle East -- for the

>>> most

>>> part not a hot war, but a war of ideas. Islam is having its

>>> Inquisition and its Reformation, but it is not known yet which will

>>> win -- the Inquisitors, or the Reformationists.

 

>>> If the Inquisition wins, then the Wahhabis, the Jihadis, will

>>> control the Middle East, the OPEC oil, and the US, European, and

>>> Asian economies. The techno-industrial economies will be at the

>>> mercy of OPEC -- not an OPEC dominated by the educated, rational

>>> Saudis of today, but an OPEC dominated by the Jihadis. You want gas

>>> in your car? You want heating oil next winter? You want the dollar

>>> to be worth anything? You better hope the Jihad, the Muslim

>>> Inquisition, loses, and the Islamic Reformation wins.

 

>>> If the Reformation movement wins, that is, the moderate Muslims

>>> who

>>> believe that Islam can respect and tolerate other religions, and

>>> live in peace with the rest of the world, and move out of the 10th

>>> century into the 21st, then the troubles in the Middle East will

>>> eventually fade away, and a moderate and prosperous Middle East will

>>> emerge.

 

>>> We have to help the Reformation win, and to do that we have to

>>> fight the Inquisition, i.e., the Wahhabi movement, the Jihad, Al Qaeda

>>> and

>>> the Islamic terrorist movements. We have to do it somewhere. And

>>> we can't do it everywhere at once. We have created a focal point

>>> for the battle at a time and place of our choosing........in Iraq.

 

>>> Not in New York, not in London, or Paris or Berlin, but in Iraq,

>>> where we are doing two important things.

 

>>> (1) We deposed Saddam Hussein. Whether Saddam Hussein was directly

>>> involved in 9/11 or not, it is undisputed that Saddam has been

>>> actively supporting the terrorist movement for decades. Saddam is a

>>> terrorist. Saddam is, or was, a weapon of mass destruction, who is

>>> responsible for the deaths of probably more than a million Iraqis

>>> and two million Iranians.

 

>>> (2) We created a battle, a confrontation, a flash point, with

>>> Islamic terrorism in Iraq. We have focused the battle. We are

>>> killing bad people, and the ones we get there we won't have to get

>>> here. We also have a good shot at creating a democratic, peaceful

>>> Iraq, which will be a catalyst for democratic change in the rest of

>>> the Middle East, and an outpost for a stabilizing American military

>>> presence in the Middle East for as long as it is needed.

 

>>> World War II, the war with the German and Japanese Nazis, really

>>> began with a "whimper" in 1928. It did not begin with Pearl

>>> Harbor. It began with the Japanese invasion of China. It was a war

>>> for fourteen years before America joined it. It officially ended in

>>> 1945 -- a 17 year war -- and was followed by another decade of US

>>> occupation in Germany and Japan to get those countries reconstructed

>>> and running on their own again ... a 27 year war.

 

>>> World War II cost the United States an amount equal to

>>> approximately a full year's GDP -- adjusted for inflation, equal to

>>> about $12

>>> trillion dollars. W.W.II cost America more than 400,000 killed in

>>> action, and nearly 100,000 still missing in action.

 

>>> The Iraq war has, so far, cost the US about $160 billion, which is

>>> roughly what 9/11 cost New York. It has also cost about 2,200

>>> American lives, which is roughly 2/3 of the 3,000 lives that the

>>> Jihad snuffed on 9/11. But the cost of not fighting and winning

>>> WWII would have been unimaginably greater -- a world dominated by

>>> German and Japanese Nazism.

 

>>> This is not 60 minute TV shows, and 2 hour movies in which

>>> everything comes out okay. The real world is not like that. It is

>>> messy, uncertain, and sometimes bloody and ugly. Always has been,

>>> and probably always will be.

 

>>> The bottom line is that we will have to deal with Islamic

>>> terrorism

>>> until we defeat it, whenever that is. It will not go away if we

>>> ignore it.

 

>>> If the US can create a reasonably democratic and stable Iraq, then

>>> we have an "England" in the Middle East, a platform, from which we

>>> can work to help modernize and moderate the Middle East. The

>>> history of the world is the clash between the forces of relative

>>> civility and civilization, and the barbarians clamoring at the

>>> gates. The Iraq war is merely another battle in this ancient and

>>> never ending war. And now, for the first time ever, the barbarians

>>> are about to get nuclear weapons. Unless somebody prevents them.

 

>>> We have four options:

 

>>> 1. We can defeat the Jihad now, before it gets nuclear weapons.

 

>>> 2. We can fight the Jihad later, after it gets nuclear weapons

>>> (which may be as early as next year, if Iran's progress on nuclear

>>> weapons is what Iran claims it is).

 

>>> 3. We can surrender to the Jihad and accept its dominance in the

>>> Middle East, now, in Europe in the next few years or decades, and

>>> ultimately in America.

 

>>> 4. Or, we can stand down now, and pick up the fight later when the

>>> Jihad is more widespread and better armed, perhaps after the Jihad

>>> has dominated France and Germany and maybe most of the rest of

>>> Europe. It will, of course, be more dangerous, more expensive, and

>>> much bloodier.

 

>>> If you oppose this war, I hope you like the idea that your

>>> children, or grandchildren, may live in an Islamic America under the

>>> Mullahs

>>> and the Sharia, an America that resembles Iran today.

 

>>> The history of the world is the history of civilizational clashes,

>>> cultural clashes. All wars are about ideas, ideas about what

>>> society and civilization should be like, and the most determined

>>> always win.

 

>>> Those who are willing to be the most ruthless always win. The

>>> pacifists always lose, because the anti-pacifists kill them.

>>> Remember, perspective is every thing, and America's schools teach

>>> too little history for perspective to be clear, especially in the

>>> young American mind.

 

>>> The Cold war lasted from about 1947 at least until the Berlin Wall

>>> came down in 1989. Forty-two years. Europe spent the first half of

>>> the 19th century fighting Napoleon, and from 1870 to 1945 fighting

>>> Germany.

 

>>> World War II began in 1928, lasted 17 years, plus a ten year

>>> occupation, and the US still has troops in Germany and Japan. World

>>> War II resulted in the death of more than 50 million people, maybe

>>> more than 100 million people, depending on which estimates you accept.

 

>>> The US has taken more than 2,000 killed in action in Iraq. The US

>>> took more than 4,000 killed in action on the morning of June 6,

>>> 1944, the first day of the Normandy Invasion to rid Europe of Nazi

>>> Imperialism. In W.W.II the US averaged 2,000 KIA a week -- for four

>>> years. Most of the individual battles of W.W.II lost more

>>> Americans than the entire Iraq war has done so far.

 

>>> But the stakes are at least as high ... A world dominated by

>>> representative governments with civil rights, human rights, and

>>> personal freedoms .. or a world dominated by a radical Islamic

>>> Wahhabi movement, by the Jihad, under the Mullahs and the Sharia

>>> (Islamic law).

 

>>> It's difficult to understand why the American left does not

>>> grasp this. They favor human rights, civil rights, liberty and freedom,

>>> but evidently not for Iraqis. "Peace Activists" always seem to

>>> demonstrate here in America, where it's safe. Why don't we see

>>> Peace Activist demonstrating in Iran, Syria, Iraq, Sudan, North

>>> Korea, in the places that really need peace activism the most?

 

>>> The liberal mentality is supposed to favor human rights, civil

>>> rights, democracy, multiculturalism, diversity, etc., but if the

>>> Jihad wins, wherever the Jihad wins, it is the end of civil rights,

>>> human rights, democracy, multiculturalism, diversity, etc.

 

Americans who oppose the liberation of Iraq are coming down on the

>>> side of their own worst enemy.

 

While this is from a year ago, it remains basically the same, give or take a few details.

 

fritz

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I like this post. I only wish that our country could grasp the ideas presented here. A long term mentality is not available. Too many people have not got an attention span longer than a 1/2 hour sitcom. I vote with a long term mentality. I look at how I would like this country to be like for my grandchildren and their children, while my oldest daughter is only 12 years old. Too many votes are tainted by voting with your hand out(what can you give me). History has been forged by fighting the good fight. The bill for freedom is still paid with blood, ours or theirs. I would rather pay the bill with theirs at their house than have to have an American Revolution all over again. It kind of seems to me that our government is devouring itself. Between polarised polital parties, legislating our freedom away, and political correctness; We the people are losing what so many have paid the ultimate price for since our Founding Fathers signed their death warrant- The Constitution. If freedom isn't worth a good, long, difficult fight, we owe them all an apology. Was it Stalin or Lenin that said, "They will be defeated from within."? I have not forgotten a day in September when our country was subjected to a brutal attack by cowards. Many that were up in arms that day are now carrying STOP THE WAR signs. They have forgotten. They will also most likely vote Hillary into the White House. Shameful. I wish this was all 20 years ago when my warrior days were beginning, so I could be there. If my parents had been handed my flag, they would not have dishonored my death by carrying my picture at an anti-war protest. Sorry, if I am just a bunch of long winded hot air. I am very frustrated without a place to vent. Feel free to delete my post if it is just a worthless rant from another delusional Marine Vet.

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More fuzzy thinking.

 

I wish you guys would pay more attention to the drivel you post.

 

This guy can't even get the factual part right.

 

Just two mistakes at the very beginning. (I don't have time--or patience--to parse the rest.)

 

1. Germany declared war on the US before we declared war on them.

 

2. Ireland was not our ally. (This cost many lives, as transatlantic shipping was decimated on the Northern Approaches to England by U-Boats.)

 

What makes you think the rest of this trash has any more substance?

 

Facts, I think, are the easy part.

 

Opinions are always just that.

 

Opinions.

 

flaco

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If it is drivel, let's just get isolationist, pull out. Your generation can deal with the fallout. In fact, I wouldn't blame the Pres. if he said, "Fine, we're out, and we don't care. I'm releasing the Guantanamo prisoners, who are persecuted by our military into NYC, Calif., and Washington D.C. I don't care about nuclear weapons in N. Korea and Iran".

 

As far as Germany goes, I have only heard that the U.S. declared war on Germany, not the other way around. I have read Hitler was taken aback that the Japs attacked Pearl.

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Tony-

 

Roosevelt was almost certainly pleased that Germany declared war on us. It gave the US the moral high ground. And above all, Roosevelt wanted to save Great Britain.

 

We had been flaunting the laws of neutrality for a long time by then.

 

The Ireland issue is more egregious: It was an important factor in the war in the Atlantic.

 

One needn't be an Historian to know about Ireland.

 

As to Isolationism, you're wrong there too: I believe that while it was not in our best interest to invade Iraq, it's now a necessity to stay.

 

Whether or not I think the goal of an "Iraqi democracy" is worth even one American life is another matter.

 

The whole fiasco has been a monumental foreign policy blunder.

 

From the equally fuzzy thinking of George W. Bush, aided and abetted by Sureshot Cheney, and largely instigated by an academic named Wolfowitz, to every not-all-that-smart early supporter of the idea of the invasion.

 

As usual, the little guys pay the price.

 

In this case it's American GIs, and the Iraqi people.

 

To use a fine definitive Military Term, Tony, it's now a Cluster F*ck of the highest order.

 

flaco

 

N.B. As to North Korea and Iran, you make my point.

 

There were serious foreign policy issues far more threatening than Iraq.

 

You named them.

 

And as to "my generation," I'm probably older than you are Tony.

 

Although I'm flattered.

 

LOL.

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You are right about Hitler declaring war on us.

I can find no reason for it as it was in his interest to have us spend our force and anger on Japan leaving him in peace as I have no doubt that lend-lease to Britain would have stopped and been diverted to our own effort against Japan.

 

You are also right as far as Irish go Éamon de Valera kept Ireland out of the war although many Irish enlisted in the service of the King.

 

As to our Mideast problem, I disagree.

 

At the time the Inversion was lunched the best Intel that I know of was that Saddam had WMD's or was rebuilding them, if one considers his record, it seemed that he would use them.

 

One can argue that the Issys and the Neo-cons were behind a policy to remake the world safe for Israel or that Mr. Bush was misinformed.

 

I think that Saddam passed his WMDs off to Syria.

 

That is for History to judge.

 

We are at war and all this "peace" and dam Bush crap does is "lend aid and comfort" to the foe.

 

Karl

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The United States was actually in a shooting war with Germany for about 6 months before war was actually declared. Due to Roosevelt's orders that the Navy escort ships bound for England for the first part of their trip across the Atlantic from the US. This was to assist the overstretched Royal Navy, and possibly goad Hitler into doing something rash. This cost us several ships, including the Destroyer the USS Reuben James, which folk singer Guthrie put to song.

As was mentioned, the attack on Pearl Harbor surprised the Germans as much as it surprised us, but Hitler honored his treaty with the Japanese and declared was on the US when we declared war on Japan. Because Germany was perceived as the bigger threat, the decision was made to devote most of our resources to fighting her, so between 75% - 90% of our war material was sent to the ETO.

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Flaco,What could or should have been done to stop terrorist attacks against us? I hear so much garbage about how Bush is screwing up,but I have yet to hear what the dems plan would have been or how Slick Willy would have handled the situation.If you say we should have had a more open dialog with the ragheads,I'll laugh my ass off,then go puke.The camel jockeys danced in the streets on 9/11,and they get a kick out of chopping off Americans heads on prime time tv.I guess we really do need to set down with diaper heads and talk,just to see what we can do to make them like us a little bit.

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That is right Jerry. It is easy to say Mr. Bush has taken the wrong path but unless the left has at least a suggestion, and the courage to put it forth, we have to regard their comments as cheap political shots from a power hungry cabal.

 

Karl

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Slick Willy would have fired a couple of dozen cruise missles at something and called it good.

 

And flaco, the excellent essay says nothing about the US declaring war on Germany first. You either need to start reading more carefully or work on your tendency toward embellishment (a typical liberal trait).

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The only thing that keeps me from just saying that I don't care about this anymore are my three girls. This country has gone down the tubes. Look what we vote for- just a reflection of ourselves. Jesus said, "To what shall I liken this generation? We played the fife and you did not dance; we played the dirge and you did not mourn". It would have been criticism whether we attacked Iraq, Iran, or Korea, or there would have been criticism if we had not attacked Iraq, and because we didn't attack Korea or Iran. Why should we care anymore? All those hate Bush bumper stickers in Austin. So what if L.A. or NYC gets lit up like a Christmas tree? Heck, Clinton allowed technology to go to N. Korea and China. Who cared? Why should I go to bed worrying about them? They voted for the rascal.

I'm done.

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German Declaration of War against the U.S.

 

The Government of the United States having violated in the most flagrant manner and in ever-increasing measure all rules of neutrality in favor of the adversaries of Germany and having continually been guilty of the most severe provocations toward Germany ever since the outbreak of the European war, provoked by the British declaration of war against Germany on September 3, 1939, has finally resorted to open military acts of aggression.

 

On September 11, 1941, the President of the United States publicly declared that he had ordered the American Navy and Air Force to shoot on sight at any German war vessel. In his speech of October 27, 1941, he once more expressly affirmed that this order was in force. Acting under this order, vessels of the American Navy, since early September 1941, have systematically attacked German naval forces. Thus, American destroyers, as for instance the Greer, the Kearny and the Reuben James, have opened fire on German submarines according to plan. The Secretary of the American Navy, Mr. Knox, himself confirmed that American destroyers attacked German submarines.

 

Furthermore, the naval forces of the United States, under order of their Government and contrary to international law have treated and seized German merchant vessels on the high seas as enemy ships.

 

The German Government therefore establishes the following facts:

 

Although Germany on her part has strictly adhered to the rules of international law in her relations with the United States during every period of the present war, the Government of the United States from initial violations of neutrality has finally proceeded to open acts of war against Germany. The Government of the United States has thereby virtually created a state of war.

 

The German Government, consequently, discontinues diplomatic relations with the United States of America and declares that under these circumstances brought about by President Roosevelt, Germany too, as from today, considers herself as being in a state of war with the United States of America.

 

Accept, Mr. Chargé d'Affaires, the expression of my high consideration.

 

December 11, 1941

 

If your telling people to to shoot someone one on sight don't think the declaration means that much. Also since he said england and scotland and not the U.K. he might have meant Northern Ireland. If your writing an opinion peice with basic facts i'll let minor technicalities slip as long as its not a blatant lie, but even that i guess would depend on how much you disagree with someone before you call it a lie.

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Like many of Hitler's documents the Declaration, is as far as it goes, historically and factually correct. It is what it does NOT say that is of importance.

 

Hitler planed to take the USA once he had finished off Europe, I recall reading that he even had a globe made with the word " later" written oner the USA.

Indeed, since he regarded FDR as a tool of the American Jews, he would have had to take America if only to finish off the Jews once and for all.

 

Now, if Hitler had had the brains of Bismarck, he would have controlled his anger, and seen that the American people would have, after Dec. 7Th FORCED FDR to stop most or all aid to England and the USSR and concentrated on Japan. FDR outsmarted him.

Karl

 

In any case this is all net BS.

We are at war and the only thing to do in war is win it.

 

Karl

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All this Bush hating and weenie talk is telling our enemies all over the world the ragheads are winning,so we can expect more violence against us,as long as there's jealousy of our freedom.Look how the Afgans drove Russia out.All the limp-wristed crybabies need to do a thourough study of the history of the United States and see why they have the right to trash our troups and the Commander in Chief during wartime without having their head chopped off or their family relocated to Siberia.This is war that has to be won,then,and only then, we can get back to a blowj_ b in the Oval Office being headline news.Someone mentioned New York or Las Angeles getting lit up like a Christmas tree.It'd be just like 9/11 all over.The country demanded something be done,it was done,and we haven't been attacked successfully,yet,but yet President Bush is a liar,and now a majority wants to be so French-like and retreat.My 2 nephews are life-ers in the Air Force,have been to Afganistan and Iraq,the younger one three times,and he hates Bush,but he still says we're doing the right thing being there,and if folks really knew what's at stake,they'd be scared schmittless and would demand we win the war.Jerry

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This has all been very interesting, and since I brought it up with the original post, I must say that I can verify one thing as fact---that the history books we had when I was in school did not go into detail about the things that have been brought up here.

 

Since I am not a scholar in the history of WW2 (or anything else for that matter), I could feel ashamed about the post I made. It probably does have some inaccuracies in it. But, since I am not a scholar, I only look at things from a patriotic angle.

 

You all know that I make a few jabs (sometimes more than a few) at the right wing conservatives here on this forum. But I believe that it is better to err on the right than the left. I question no one on their interpretation of history. Obviously there are more enlightened fellows here than me.

 

But that's all right. That is what this forum is all about, and I feel that I have done something postive in presenting one point of view. I never expect that everyone will agree with me (the fact that one does every now and then keeps me going).

 

fritz

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I must agree with what Karl, horsefly, FC, and USMC have said on this subject. I have had the priviledge of speaking to several veterans of Iraq and they ALL say that we should be there and the job we are doing there is an important one. This is good enough for me.The reality is, we are at war in iraq, we must be allowed to finish the job we sent our troops there to do, and we must support our troops 110%. Period.

 

 

 

 

oh, and Fritz, thanks for the original post. very interesting and informative. also, I, for one, appreciate a diference of opinion, gives a person food for thought and keeps your own "opinion pool" from becoming stagnant. thanks again, Steve

 

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Quote-- All those hate Bush bumper stickers in Austin.

 

 

Tony, I go to Austin often. My son lives there. I have not seen any of these bumper stickers, but then I have been too busy watching out for other drivers cutting in front of me to observe what is on their bumpers.

 

What I have observed about Austin, and this is taken from many years now, is the fact that I never see a single soul in public that is over 40. I once asked mrs fritz where the older folks were. She said that they didn't come out on weekends, which is when we were usually up there. The big stores are open on sundays, and my son is off work then.

 

I guess that I cannot get used to the fact that most people work 5 days a week and play on weekends. I am 63 years of age, and I still cannot understand that. Oh, I understand it, but still find it different from my work week.

 

That work week is, and always has been (even in the military), 7 days a week. Time off comes at various times, it obviously has to in order to keep moral up. But I never quite got the grasp of the monday to friday thing. It comes as no surprise to me that Japan attacked Pearl Harbor on a sunday morning.

 

What better time to catch America off guard, or off the job? I know that our military has changed since then, thus the 24/7 regimen now. Maybe it would keep some of the more "liberal" types from dispensing their hatred of this country if they had to work on weekends.

 

Today is my son's 37th birthday, and he has no hate bumper stickers on his car. I could say it is because he is getting close to 40, but the real reason is because he is my son. He was raised on a farm and did the same things that I do on a daily basis. "Our" kind of people need no bumper stickers to show their attitude---it is displayed in every thing that we do (even if it is monday to friday).

So, while I have not witnessed all those hate bumper stickers in Austin, I do not refute the fact that they exist. Rather, I refer back to my original view of Austin as a city of the young. And the young tend to be a bit liberal.

 

Maybe it is the yearning to be young again that makes me post a few things that play on the liberal side of things. Or just the fact that I like to keep an open mind. I have lost a lot of my hearing, and the eyes ain't too strong, but my mind is still strong.

 

fritz

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