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z1r

1891 Argentine

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Here's a pic of a pair of my 1891's.

 

DSC00461.jpg

 

 

The sporter I just completed last night. I started with a barrelled action that had a front sight ramp screwed on badly. I chopped teh barrel to 18", recrowned it, and reinstalled the sight ramp. I retained the original rear sight base and spring and made a flip up sight like on the M1 Carbine. One blade for 123 grainers and another for the heavier stuff. Then I blued the metal. Lastly, I fitted it into a new stock, which I just finished up last night. The perfect little carbine weighs in at 6.25 lbs.

 

Here's what it looked like when I just finished teh metal work and started on the stock.

 

DSC00339.jpg

 

 

All that's left now is t checkering.

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Really nice, Z.

 

I really like my 1891 that I got in a trade on the board here. It was an action in a sporterized stock, sans barrel. I put one of the short surplus 7x57 barrels on it. I had some problems with cartridges jumping out of the mag, but solved it with a couple of judiciously placed dimples in the feed lips with a chisel (Bubba lives).

 

Its got a banded front sight from an M48 or K98 (don't remember for sure) and an old Lyman apeture sight that I picked up somewhere. I put a handguard on it from a cut down Turk that I thought was walnut until I sanded the crud off and now think is birch. The handguard is held on by a Turk front band and wired in the back like the original. I haven't weighed it but I bet its around 6 lbs and very accurate. I'll see if I can dig up a pic.

 

1891.jpg

 

Are yours in 7.65 x 53?

 

I'm in awe of the excellent finish of these actions. They're truly works of art. I'd like to find another to keep in the original chambering.

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DT,

 

Sweet! I liek the old sporterized look, nicely done.

 

I almost went with a receiver sight but decided I didn't want the interference with the handle.

Mine is still a 7.65x53. the barrel ws too nice to throw away. I figure it is perect for my boy. We'll start with 7.62x39 equivilent loads then move up to the heavier stuff.

 

Yeah, they're very nicely made. I cobbled mine together. It was mising the bolt guts, and bolt stop. I replaced it with parts off a 95. I like the 95 style shroud better. Also the simplicty of the standard muaser firing pin and cocking piece. Makes takedown a breeze.

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Wow mike, nothing captures my eye like an argie. I've got one (1891) that my dad passed on to me. He bought it when he was 14 for twenty dollars, brand new never issued. Its had about 2 boxes of shells shot thorough it, and hes now 62. Its got a sporter stock on it now from years past. Has a problem feeding shells due to the poor inlet job, havn't got around to fiddlin w/it yet. Very fine work Mike.

 

Dt, i like yours as well. I love the look that you have provided it.

 

Have you guyes found these actions to be "soft" vs the other argies? every re-load book i read says 1891's are extremely soft. I'm not loading to max pressure or anything, i just can't see where there that soft?

brenden

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I don't usually build on these so I have no idea if they are soft. But, since the much covetted 1909 is, I'll assume so. That said, it shouldn't be an issue because I will never load these to full potential. I have one box of Factory Norma ammo and I may just pull it down rather than fire it. The way I see it, if you keep loads at around .300 savage velocities & pressures you shouldn't have a real problem. These have about the worst gas handling of the mausers so load with caution.

 

They are still nice though, put together like a sewing machine. I really like that carbine I have. One day, I'd like a 1909 Carbine to match.

 

your dad's rifle sounds really kool. I love stories like that. My first mauser I bought when I was 18. Paid $10 for a 1893 Turk bbl'd action. Now, 25 years later, I finally got around to having it heat treated and will be putting together a 7x57.

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I don't usually build on these so I have no idea if they are soft. But, since the much covetted 1909 is, I'll assume so. That said, it shouldn't be an issue because I will never load these to full potential. I have one box of Factory Norma ammo and I may just pull it down rather than fire it. The way I see it, if you keep loads at around .300 savage velocities & pressures you shouldn't have a real problem. These have about the worst gas handling of the mausers so load with caution.

 

They are still nice though, put together like a sewing machine. I really like that carbine I have. One day, I'd like a 1909 Carbine to match.

 

your dad's rifle sounds really kool. I love stories like that. My first mauser I bought when I was 18. Paid $10 for a 1893 Turk bbl'd action. Now, 25 years later, I finally got around to having it heat treated and will be putting together a 7x57.

 

Norma factory ammo works just fine, I have 2 1891's and have used Norma in both with no problem. There are only two mausers that use this caliber Norma knows it and makes sure not to go over their capability. Enjoy :rolleyes:

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A couple of questions on the 1891. I have a sporter built on an 1891 action made by Loewe. Are all 1891's built by Loewe.

 

Second question. There is no gas port. BUT the early Swedes didn't have gas ports but I have a couple of rifles that suggest that ordinance drilled a hole in the bolt on those early rifles at some point in time. I also have one Swede that has two holes in the bolt. SO... Why can't you drill a gas port in the Argie?

 

I put a Swede barrel on my Argie couple of years ago ... creation of a Swedentine. ;) Tanglewood put a new handle on the bolt and I just got it back and fitted to the action, and dropped it in a Herters Monte Carlo stock that I picked up on eBay. I've got it fitted and initial bedding. It's gradually coming together Hope to have it finished in next week or two.

 

With the way you guys are bragging on this action, I'm getting more and more proud of it. It could become my favorite shooter.

 

 

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DWM made later 1891's. I'm not braggin on the action but I do like the little carbine and I couldn't very well throw away a perfectly good action. As with all early Mausers, the workmanship is impecable! A 250 or 300 Savage would have been my first choice but I didn't want to ditch the perfectly good barrel. Later I think I'll get a nice .22 barrel and do a .219 zipper using .225 Winchester brass.

 

 

As for shooting Norma ammo in it, well Norma .338-06 ammo flattens primers. No, I'll stick with less warm loads and even maybe cast. I think a 180 GCFN at about 22-2300 fps would be dandy. For now, I'm using 130's at about 2200.

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These have about the worst gas handling of the mausers so load with caution.

 

Can't say it enough!! I've said it numerous times before in this and other groups as well. I was fire forming brass for my 91 and a blast of hot gas blew right back into my face. If I hadn't been wearing safety glasses it would have seriously affected my right eye, likely blinded it. The escaping gas literally toasted the right lens of the safety glasses. If you value your eyesight don't even think about shooting one of these without good safety glasses.

 

Shooting friend of mine likes to brag about his first rifle, an Argie, purchased in the mid 60's. His dad bought two, both in mint condition. He claims his dad spent $45 and some loose change for two rifles and one box of Norma ammo. My buddy said he was teed off because his dad wouldn't spend another 50 cents each for bayonets. He and his dad took the rifles deer hunting a couple days later. Both bagged a deer and a few weeks later my friend was on his way in the Army and later the Nam war. He still has the 91 Argie and it still looks near mint. As far as I know it hasn't been shot since the 60's.

 

I have a 91 Peru variation. Identical to the Argie with the exception of the rear sight and handguard. The barrel on mine was arsenal relined. The receiver and barrel are pitted but the bore is as shiny as a mirror. I'll try and get a picture posted tomorrow if I don't have it in my files.

 

peru.jpg

 

peru-1a.jpg

 

The Peru version used the Gew 98 type rear sight. Can't see it in the picture but the handguard is shorter but still fastened the same as the Arige with a copper wire. The sling in not original it is a US GI.

peru-4.jpg

 

When I was younger with sharp eyesight I could print clusters with this rifle. The Hornady round nose bullet weighing apx 175 grs would follow the sights pretty close. Lighter bullets even mild loads all shot high.

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Second question. There is no gas port. BUT the early Swedes didn't have gas ports but I have a couple of rifles that suggest that ordinance drilled a hole in the bolt on those early rifles at some point in time. I also have one Swede that has two holes in the bolt. SO... Why can't you drill a gas port in the Argie?

At the risk of redundancy, I'll ask the question again. We've got a couple of qualified gunsmiths on this thread so should be able to answer it.

 

Why can't you drill a gas port in the Argie? The Swedish arsenal did it. Why can't we do it today? I don't want hot gas on my face any more than you do. The gas port would reroute the gasses away from the face.

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Why can't you drill a gas port in the Argie? ........ The gas port would reroute the gasses away from the face.

 

Well, I'm both a half-assed gunsmith and a full time professional Chemical engineer. Gas under pressure travels down the path of least resistance. The path of least resistance is always a straight line to the the lowest pressure -- typically outside the action. Normally, that path of least resistance when a case head lets go is down a bolt raceway. On the Argie, the bolt lug raceway is pretty much unobstructed. The gas ports in bolts may relieve some pressure to the magazine if a pierced primer is the source of the gas. Gas holes in the receiver ring do precious little to stop the gas headed down the bolt lug raceway. I honestly don't hold with modifications to the bolt shroud, holes in the receiver, or other "improvements." I think the answer lies in good, safe loading practices and appropriate eye protection.

 

Clemson ;)

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As a professional there are some things I just can't speak to from a liability stand point. This is one of them. Convincing a jury that the receiver was so substandard that i just had to drill extra holes to fix it just ain't gonna fly.

 

Sorry Charlie. But Clemson just hit on all the salient points.

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The gas ports in bolts may relieve some pressure to the magazine if a pierced primer is the source of the gas. Gas holes in the receiver ring do precious little to stop the gas headed down the bolt lug raceway. Clemson ;)

I've popped primers before, shooting loads in August that were developed in cool weather. I was alerted only by a faint odor of powder to prompt me to open the bolt slowly. Yep, pierced primer, and on one shot the primer fell out of the pocket. So I know that gas ports in the bottom of the bolt do help on pierced primers. I do have one rifle with hole in the receiver and aligned hole in the bolt. As far as I'm concerned, it is too small to do much good. Hadn't thought about gas traveling down the raceway, but surely any escape route should help some. I do notice that the Swedes have holes, considerably smaller than the M98 large slots. I would find it hard to envision gas not being relieved adequately on a 98.

 

You say you don't hold with modifications, etc... Surely any relief of gas is better than gas in the face. However, I do hear you on good, safe loading practices and appropriate eye protection. I'm presently in discovery of lower velocity loads. (prompted by the August issue) Trajectory and velocity are not that important. The deer is not going to know the difference in 200 fps or 2 inches of trajectory. After all, the Swede is well over 2000 foot lb which is 800 lb more than the necessary 1200 fpi. Shucks, I know guys who hunt deer with 223.

 

Another point that I think is important along this same topic. Be careful of shooting loads in hot summer that were developed in cool weather. My goal is to drop all my loads by 3-4 grains. I'm sure there is an accuracy load down lower. There usually is.

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Yep, and even the Model 94 was a quantum leap from the Model 91 in safety. The Swedes benefitted from some improvements in metallurgy as well as design. The old Model 91 Argentine is a beautifully made piece of machinery, however. To reproduce that action today would be absolutely cost-prohibitive. They are a mechanical joy to behold -- just not as safe as more modern rifles.

 

Clemson

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I feel in a quadry. I have a really nice 1891 Argentine that I bought for $250 at the Canton, TX flea market a few years ago. I've shot it on one occasion. I felt some warmth come back at my head when I shot a moderate hand load.

 

I really want to port the bolt, but that means a reduction in bolt strength too. I know the bolt body doesn't bear the brunt of the force, but the lugs do. I just want to be as safe as possible. I wear regular glasses when I shoot, but don't want somebody, some day shooting without eye protection.

 

Off the official record gunsmiths, just opinion (I'm not a customer), how would you port it if it was yours? What size hole, and where? Would you perhaps imitate the 98?

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The easiest way to avoid issues is to respect the action's limitations and not try to shot modern loads out of it.

 

FC, PM sent.

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What size hole, and where? Would you perhaps imitate the 98?

FC, I'm afraid if you drilled holes as large as the 98, you might do more than fart. :(

 

Okay, I'll not drill but do want to stay on the safe side with loads. You say the Swede 94 is an improvement. That suggests to me that the Argie is not as strong as the Swede. I've got a Swede barrel on this action. Can I shoot Swede loads in it, say on the light side? I'm also developing a Twede, a Turk with a Czech bolt that I'm not afraid of with heavy loads, but I need to know how to load the Swedentine.

 

 

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The easiest way to avoid issues is to respect the action's limitations and not try to shot modern loads out of it.

 

FC, PM sent.

 

Apx 20 or so years ago a friend and I split a deal on Argentine manufactured sporting ammo for the 7.65. There was a warning in Spanish on the box to use on 09's and not the earlier 1891's. Same should apply to any Argie surplus ammo as it was likely loaded for the 09 action and is to hot for the 91.

 

If you should have the mis-fortune to run into any Turk 7.65 ammo, avoid it like it has some kind of highly contagious disease. It is by far the worse ammo I have ever had. What does shoot is going to be at least a 1-3 second hang-fire. The Turk 7.65 ammo also and this is no exaggeration smells like a freshly dumped turd after being shot. People at the range will be looking your direction wondering who cut the cheeze.

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FC, I'm afraid if you drilled holes as large as the 98, you might do more than fart. :(

 

Okay, I'll not drill but do want to stay on the safe side with loads. You say the Swede 94 is an improvement. That suggests to me that the Argie is not as strong as the Swede. I've got a Swede barrel on this action. Can I shoot Swede loads in it, say on the light side? I'm also developing a Twede, a Turk with a Czech bolt that I'm not afraid of with heavy loads, but I need to know how to load the Swedentine.

 

That goes without saying. Each mauser model was an improvement over the previous model(s).

 

Strength isn't the only concern, as has been previously stated, gas handling is what you need to worry about. If in doubt, load to pressures that the original round was loaded to. In most cases that is less than 45K CUP.

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Be careful of shooting loads in hot summer that were developed in cool weather.

 

I hadn't heard of this before. Could you elaborate?

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Monte,

 

Some powders are more temperature sensetive than others. It's a fairly well known phenomenon. If you develop a max load in winter and then shoot it in the middle of the summer you can get pressure spikes. It is generally best to deveolop a load in the weather you intend to use it in. If yer going to Africa, then do you development down in Texas in teh summer.

 

Maybe one of the more eloquent, or better typers, can elaborate a bit more as to the why's and wherefores.

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Monte,

Some powders are more temperature sensetive than others. It's a fairly well known phenomenon.

Mike, I don't know if some powders are more sensitive or not. I suspect that all have some sensitivity to temperature. I do know that the particular phenomenon I experienced just happened to be with RL22 which is a slow burning double base powder. Again, I don't know if that is a factor or not. What I am looking to test this Spring is IMR 7828, a slow burning single base powder.

 

I do know that I'm backing off on all my loads. I doubt that I accomplish it in this year's testing, but I hope to develop loads in ALL my rifles that are satisfactory in August and still group well in cooler weather. Then I know I have a load I can shoot year round.

 

I would also like to test all loads in the weakest rifle, which would be the Swedentine (Argie actioned 6.5x55). And then I can also know that it will shoot in the strongest rifle. It sure would be nice to discover a load that would shoot well in all my rifles, from the weaker Swedentine to the certainly strong Twede, as well as my Swedes.

 

Again, I will pose the question of what is a fair load for the Argie action. I am not shooting 7.65 so that criteria doesn't help me. Will the action handle 45,000 cup? Or should I consider a lower pressure?

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Thor it had been 20+ years since I reloaded 7.65. I recall using Winchester 748 and using 30/30 data for the 150 and 170 bullets as the starting point. I honestly don't recall if I went up or down from there. I also had the advantage of having an 09 in 7.65 I could also test loads with.

 

As far as the way temperature effects reloads. From what I recall reading, it is a problem associated with slower burning powders. I also recall reading about problems with 9MM surplus ammo from Switzerland and Finland being shot here in the Southwest. Some claim most 9MM surplus was made for sub machineguns and is to hot for many handguns already and shooting it in Arizona heat only compounds the problem. Friend of mine destroyed the slide from his WW2 P-38 shooting surplus on a 110 degree day. We shot the remainder of the ammo with the conversion cylinder of my Ruger 357/9MM without any trouble.

 

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If you take the time to research the powder manufacturer's sites, you will find that Hodgden has a complete line of "EXTREME" powders designed to address the temperature variations that other powders can produce. I too love the Reloader line but they are notorious for developing wide variations in pressure and velocity due to ambient temperature differences. I have slowly been changing over to Hodgden and find Varget to be a superb powder for most all medium capacity cartridges. FYI, most of you know that Hodgden makes IMR and Winchester powders now.

We often develop loads in the off season, (IE cooler weather) and shoot in 80-90 degree weather.

Thor, I'm sure you know that keeping two versions of 6.5x55 ammo separate can be a pain. If the '91 was mine, I would pull and save that wonderful Swede barrel and either restore it to original caliber or maybe 300 savage. That's just me. The '91s are a beautiful action but weak metallurgically and in their ability to handle gas blowback. A 6.5x55 on a good Turk action allows you to take advantage of a great cartridge being able to be loaded to it's full potential and not limited to the original Swede 96 lower pressures.

 

http://www.hodgdon.com/smokeless/extreme/page4.php

 

 

Spiris

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