Ballistics help

[montea6b]

This might be a better topic for another forum, but I thought I'd start here since it's where I tend to lurk most.

 

There is an issue brewing locally concerning hunting on county owned land. Several letters have been written to the local newspaper, and you can guess what most of the letter writers have to say, most are against it. (the vocal minority) Additionally there is a public hearing scheduled for 26 Sep.

 

Anyhow, while they do bring up a few valid safety concerns relevant to our growing island community, several of them have been full of errors and emotionally driven. No big surprise from the antis.

 

Example: One writer pointed out that rifle bullets can travel up to a mile, claiming that each hunter would require a two mile diameter safety circle around him.

 

Facts:

1. Rifles have not been allowed for hunting on the island since I moved here in 1992, so his point is irrelevant. (shotguns, muzzle loaders, and archery only)

 

2. Yes, they may travel up to a mile, but only if launched at ___ degrees up. plus, by the time the bullet gets a mile away it's velocity is only ___ and it has about as much energy left as a hard thrown rock(?).

 

Plus, the area of concern is thickly wooded and nothing is going to travel very far anyhow. What I'd like help with is in filling in some of the blanks to counter the nonsense. I have found ballistic tables on line, but they only go out so far. What I'd like is to be able to state that a level fired shoulder rifle shot would hit the dirt by ___ feet. Or how non-lethal it would by by ___ feet. And similar information for shotguns and muzzle loaders.

 

Is there a relatively simple formula which can be used to calculate this, or if I have a couple data points from a table can I accurately interpolate the rest of the curve?

 

 

[montea6b]

Clink on the link below for a poorly written article called "hunters or hikers?":

 

http://www.whidbeynewstimes.com/

[Doble Troble]

Monte,

 

I don't think you need to go any further than the ballistics tables available in most reloading manuals. From the Hornday manual it has a hot loaded 300 mag at 3100 fps with a 165 gr BTSP zeroed at 100 yds dropping 44" at 500 yds. If fired on level ground by a tall hunter standing at a target 30" tall 100 yards away it would be in the ground well before 500 yds.

 

I like to bring-up the fact that guns aren't laser weapons, and it's actually a challenge to kill things with them. The anti's are brain washed with images of Bruce Willis and Ahnold making one shot kills with a 9 mm at 100 yds while running. These types of of images is what the NRA needs to be fighting.

 

Well, I gess you'd need to do the trig to figure-out exactly how far, and it's these types of fake numbers that weenie anti's love to obsess over. Maybe QuickLoad has an easier approach...

 

It's this type of concern that has let to a law requiring rifle hunters to be at least 8' above the ground here in NC. But it's flat as a board here. When I lived in OR no one had ever heard of a tree stand. Now I use one. Not as exciting as a stalk, but you don't have to work too hard, I got a comfy one that's great for napping, and with the deer density out here you still get your meat (if you have land to hunt on, which is another big difference from the West).

 

Maybe this will help:

 

 

Doesn't look so magnum does it?

[Jimro]

Bring up NJ and how they are clamoring for more hunters to control the huge deer population that eats the wussies flowers.

 

Heck, in 1997 there were 87 deaths caused by hunting incidents, and in that same year there were 85 deaths by lightning strike. I take my chances with lightning every day, considering that the two seasons I'll hunt this year will be two weeks combined, I'm statistically safer hunting.

 

Bullets can travel "up to a mile" and beyond, but the number of deaths caused by bullets at that range is zero documented cases (with the exception of some well aimed .50 cal sniper rifles used in OEF).

 

In the 1880's the 45-70 was tested against the 45-80 at long range, at 12'x12' targets. They just picked the rounds up out of the sand behind, and in front of the targets. There was not sufficient energy left to penetrate the beach where the testing was conducted.

 

Jimro

[fritz]

Sounds like the key words here are "county owned land".

 

This should be expected on land owned by other than individuals.

 

That's why hunting leases are so expensive in Texas (and other free states). It's like having your own private playground when you buy a lease.

 

Otherwise, you are at the mercy of the local county fundillos.

 

The facts of hunting on public land (as presented by fritz).

 

I don't like it anymore than you do, but it's life.

 

fritz

[montea6b]

Thanks DT, that's exactly the kind of chart I was looking for. The tables I found stopped at around 300 yds.

[Spector]

Since you've said ''(shotguns, muzzle loaders, and archery only)'' I assume this issue mainly deals with deer hunters.

 

You might want to figure the ballistics on the street missles these same morons pilot, at legal speed limits, to get to the local McDonalds. At illegal speeds a motor vehicle only produces more impressive ballistics and enters the realm of weapon of mass destruction. McDonalds is the place they tend to go to get the meat they crave without having to face the emotional moral implications that hunting raises in them.

 

Of course they will fall back to the position that it is the irresponsible hunter they fear, but statistics will clearly show it is the motor vehicles on public property that are the main killers and mammers of the citizenry.

 

Besides, the meat you harvest on county property is healthier for you.....and them, than their favorite suppliers of meat.

 

Though I will have to admit that the golden arches are a much easier target to hit than a cagey buck.......Mike

[Guest MorgansBoss]

Monte

 

DO NOT GET SUCKERED INTO THIS TRAP!!!!!

 

Since rifles are already banned the best response is to simply state the facts - it's irrevelent how far a rifle will shoot because a rifle cannot be used - cite the difference between rifles and shotguns and the reason shotguns and M/L's are used is because they do not carry more than a couple hundred yards in open land. Further, since most hunting is in thickly wooded land the potential threat is considerably diminished.

 

If talk of rifles and distance, etc. are discussed it will stick with many people who don't know the difference between a rifle and a shotgun. The result will be "NO" votes resulting from confusion and unwarranted fear! Get the facts right and stick to only the relevant facts!!!! Keep explainations SIMPLE and in terms someone with no firearm knowledge can understand. Also try to keep it a brief as possible and still get the facts across. Good Luck!

[Sailormilan2]

Montea6b,

maybe this will help you out.

In 1879, the US Army tested the 45-70 to determine its long range capabilites, using both the 405 gr. and the 500 gr, bullets.

A large target was set up at 2,500 yds, and angled so that the incoming bullets would hit almost perpendicular.

The 405 gr bullet would almost penetrate the target, with was 6 layers of spaced 1" boards. The 500 gr bullet would completely penetrate all 6 boards, and go another 6" into the sand.

The tests were then extended to 3,200 yds. The 500 gr. bullet went through 3 inches of hardwood. At 3,500 yds the bullet penetrated 1 1/2" of wood. At 3,680 yds penetration was 1".

 

Rifle Magazine, September, 2003, article MODEL 1873 U.S. SPRINGFIELD AT LONG RANGE, p. 67

 

sorry it took so long to repond, but I couldn't find the article.

[z1r]

I think Morgnsboss is right. Better to point out that rifles are already prohibited.

 

Does anyone remember when .22LR boxes used to have that warning printed on them about the 1 mile+ range the rounds had?

[Guest MorgansBoss]

At each of my safety classes we pick a landmark roughly one mile from the classroom location. We then ask the class (during the apropriate segment) to name a nearby landmark (store, intersection, etc.) that is would be how far a .22 will shoot. When they are told the landmark we've chosen - one-mile away - it puts the danger potential of what they typically regurad a puny cartridge into a perspective they can apprciate.

 

Monte - let us know how it came out!