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Military Firearm Restoration Corner

Will This Trigger Fit A Siamese?


Ridges

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Hi Matt,

 

First, welcome to our forum.

 

To back up a bit, Timney used to catalog a trigger with or without side safety, for the Siamese. Now they just show just two models of 98 for all, the FN for most and the "K" model for small trigger guards (ie: some small rings or 95 trigger guards).

 

I have used the new one-size-fits-all FN version and they seem to work, on occasion they need to be sent back to Timney for a sear transplant to higher or lower sear.

 

So, now to the Bold. They are basically an exact, but much lower priced version of the Timney with, so far as I know, no "K" option. I haven't used them much but they appear to me to be very high quality and I have no reservations about recommending them. I have no idea why there is such a price disparity between them and the Timney.

 

So if they are about the same, it seems like the Bold should work on the Siamese. I will get back to you this afternoon after I pull out a Siamese and a Bold and try it out. It's an interesting question.

 

However, there is a new issue which you will be confronting, the bolt shroud. Generally the side safety trigger is used in conjunction with the "commercial" bolt shroud. Is that what you were planning, or just going to take off the safety lever and use the original shroud?

 

Unlike most 98s, where shroud change is almost a drop in, a Siamese requires some modifications as the firing pin is 90 degrees from all other 98s. A few years ago I made a lengthy post on it on this forum and you could search for it. When I get back to this, this afternoon, if you want the info and it can't be found, I'll go over it again.

 

Talk to you later.

 

Brad

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Hey Matt,

 

I'm going hunting this afternoon so thought I better get your answer ASAP.

 

I installed a Bold on an already completely modified Siamese action and it worked perfectly, safety and all. However, as on the Timney, the front of the housing interferes with the slanted trigger guard's seating, so the front of the trigger housing must be beveled to accommodate the tg. A project that takes two minutes.

 

Good luck. Let us know how it goes.

 

Brad

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Hey Matt,

 

I'm going hunting this afternoon so thought I better get your answer ASAP.

 

I installed a Bold on an already completely modified Siamese action and it worked perfectly, safety and all. However, as on the Timney, the front of the housing interferes with the slanted trigger guard's seating, so the front of the trigger housing must be beveled to accommodate the tg. A project that takes two minutes.

 

Good luck. Let us know how it goes.

 

Brad

 

 

Hi Brad,

 

Thank you for taking the time to answer me. I went ahead and ordered the Bold trigger from Midway!

 

Is it possible to leave the original shroud and safety on, and still use the Bold trigger/safety? I figured I could swing the original safety over to the "fire" position and just use the Bold's side safety as my main safety?

 

Thanks for you help,

Matt

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Since I don't have a Siamese action and bolt to study, let me ask a couple of questions here.

#1. Will a commercial bolt shroud screw on a Siamese bolt? I ask that as the factory that built the Siamese actions slightly modified some of the threads. If a commercial bolt shroud will work on a Siamese bolt, ehn"

#2. See if a Yugo firing pin will fit. A Siamese action is nothing but an intermediate Mauser action modified for a rimmed cartridge. I have found Yugo M48 bolts that will work in a Siamese action. If the Siamese firing pin and cocking piece is different enough that it can't be used with a commercial bolt shroud, maybe using a Yugo firing pin and cocking piece will work with a commercial shroud.

Of course, that scenario will only work if the shroud will screw onto the bolt, and a Yugo firing pin works.

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Hey Dale,

#1 Yes, the commercial shroud will screw right in to a Siamese. That's the way I always do it. The addition is fine if you use a std cocking piece, or better a 98 Kurz, if you can find one, not the Siamese and make a few grinds on the firing pin.

 

#2 Your idea about the intermediate Yugo is an interesting one. Worth trying. I have no Yugos, you have no Siamese. I'll come by your house next week one day and we can try it out and report back to all.

 

Matt, Yes, I believe you can retain the original stuff and get by. As Don said there's probably some grinding and filing that might be needed. You can figure that part out when you try it. Of couse if all that doesn't work out you can order the non-side safety version trigger and use that with original safety (which often don't work well in Siameses) or find the Buehler type safety and replace the original.

 

Please let us know how it goes. Meantime Sailormilan2 and I will experiment with the Siamese/Yugo idea and get back.

 

By the way, Dale, off subject, Rocky got a great 4x4 last night with a bow and arrow. Weird way to hunt but great shot at 40 yds. through brush uphill. Almost instant kill.

 

Brad

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a yugo pin works but the tip needs to be extended. That was the route I took when I fit a gentry 3 position safety to a 45-70 siamese. Basically the siamese original firing pin assemby is 90deg off what a standard mauser is, so if you change the shroud to a 98 shroud the bolts safety cams will prevent the pin from falling. A yugos pin is the right length from the cp to the cams. But the siamese's tip is longer.

Don

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Hey Dale,

#1 Yes, the commercial shroud will screw right in to a Siamese. That's the way I always do it. The addition is fine if you use a std cocking piece, or better a 98 Kurz, if you can find one, not the Siamese and make a few grinds on the firing pin.

 

#2 Your idea about the intermediate Yugo is an interesting one. Worth trying. I have no Yugos, you have no Siamese. I'll come by your house next week one day and we can try it out and report back to all.

 

Matt, Yes, I believe you can retain the original stuff and get by. As Don said there's probably some grinding and filing that might be needed. You can figure that part out when you try it. Of couse if all that doesn't work out you can order the non-side safety version trigger and use that with original safety (which often don't work well in Siameses) or find the Buehler type safety and replace the original.

 

Please let us know how it goes. Meantime Sailormilan2 and I will experiment with the Siamese/Yugo idea and get back.

 

By the way, Dale, off subject, Rocky got a great 4x4 last night with a bow and arrow. Weird way to hunt but great shot at 40 yds. through brush uphill. Almost instant kill.

 

Brad

 

Brad, when I had those two actions that you now have, I expirimented with a couple of Yugo bolts that I had. IIRC, one of the receivers would take both bolts, and one receiver would only take one bolt. That is why I said what I did about manufacturing tolerences.

Good for Rocky. I need to get back out there, but have pretty much given up hunting in CA.

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Yes, the bolt "fit" but there was enough problems I didn't want to mess with it, that I found a Siamese bolt and fp and used them and sent that Yugo bolt back to you. But that does demonstrate the relative similarities that could provide for intechangeabilty.

 

Don's comment on the fp nose is interesting, for all the Siamese I've worked on I never paid any attention to that. We'll look tomorrow. I do have to grind the ridge on the gas deflector back some and usually have to adjust the pin protrusion, meaning shorten it, after the pin is rotated 90 degrees.

 

Again you can't rotate the pin to work on a non Siamese shroud without changing the cocking piece.

 

Manana, amigo.

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Hey guys,

 

Thanks for all the replies and info. The trigger arrived today and it looks great. Like you said Brad, it required a little bit of grinding to clear the trigger guard.

 

Now I have a new small issue that popped up. It seems in my unprofessional opinion that the sear is too tall, or something is off just a tad.

 

With the set screw snug on the trigger against the action, I can not get the trigger to fully "fire". It feels like the trigger only releases at about 50% and barely clicks. If I loosen the set screw to the point of the trigger housing being sloppy, I still get the wimpy click but, when I lift the bolt or take it off safety I get a normal "fire" from the trigger.

 

Thanks for your help,

Matt

 

EDIT....

 

It appears the sear is indeed too high. I shimmed the back end of the trigger housing and adjusted the set screw out to level it off. Cocked the bolt, took safety off, and BAM trigger seems 100% better now. Nice solid loud click. Is it common to have to shim the trigger? Are there shims specific for this I should use? I just used a small washer to test this with.

 

Here's how it looks:

 

img00084201109121958.jpg

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Well, SM2 and I got together on Tuesday and compared Yugo and Siamese parts to see what could be interchanged to add the commercial shroud.

 

Basically everything interchanged and functioned. A Yugo fp and cp will convert the fp to accommodate the commercial shroud. In the past I have used the Siamese fp and changed the cp to a std or Kurz. It does require grinding back the gas deflector shoulder (Don referred to it as the fp cam, which indeed it is) to give a little more forward travel for proper fp protrusion (as Don also pointed out) The same must also be done with the Siamese fp, though, as well as a bit of grinding on the fp nose shank for a little clearance.

 

Considering it, I think using the Yugo fp is a little better way to go as the gas deflector shoulder is still facing the same direction as in the original position, rather than rotated 90 degrees with using the Siamese fp.

 

Matt, looks like you solved the too high sear in fine fashion. I've always either ground the top of the sear down to clear or sent the Timney's back for surgery. Your way looks just fine so long as the shim is secured well.

 

Also, Matt, we looked at how much grinding is going to be required on the right bottom side of the mil shroud to clear the side safety. It's a lot, not sure how pretty it will be. The Siamese shrouds sell for around $25 and the commercials from Brownells cost around $35, for a much nicer finished appearance. Just food for thought.

 

Good luck. Let us know how all came out.

 

Brad

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Okay, Don. I have to confess to Bubba style fitting. I don't have any specs. I just filed and tried till it worked and gave me proper nose protrusion. As I mentioned above, when you use the Siamese fp it gets thicker down the shaft of the nose and it becomes necessary to turn some of the side of the nose off. As it goes farther down the fp tunnel it starts to bind otherwise.

 

I never took anything off the cams, only the forward shoulder. That was stopping on whatever down in the bolt in the fp tunnel.

 

Remember, with the Siamese fp the bolt cam/gas diversion shoulder is resting on a shelf after it has been rotated, rather than down in the cam well, hence the need to shorten. That's why I said I thought the Yugo is a better way to go. The cam is where it was designed to be...I think.

 

I've done four that way, three 45-70s and one 45-90 (still a work in progress) and so far so good. Still have ten fingers and two eyeballs.

 

Brad

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  • 1 month later...

Okay, Don. I have to confess to Bubba style fitting. I don't have any specs. I just filed and tried till it worked and gave me proper nose protrusion. As I mentioned above, when you use the Siamese fp it gets thicker down the shaft of the nose and it becomes necessary to turn some of the side of the nose off. As it goes farther down the fp tunnel it starts to bind otherwise.

 

I never took anything off the cams, only the forward shoulder. That was stopping on whatever down in the bolt in the fp tunnel.

 

Remember, with the Siamese fp the bolt cam/gas diversion shoulder is resting on a shelf after it has been rotated, rather than down in the cam well, hence the need to shorten. That's why I said I thought the Yugo is a better way to go. The cam is where it was designed to be...I think.

 

I've done four that way, three 45-70s and one 45-90 (still a work in progress) and so far so good. Still have ten fingers and two eyeballs.

 

Brad

 

 

Hey Brad,

 

Just wanted to give you an update since it's been awhile. I haven't done too much more with it right now, as I really want to get a new stock for it. Does anyone have an idea where I could get one for this action with the fat navy arms barrel it has?

 

Also, what's weird is the shroud clears the safety completely, it's pretty close, but it does not touch it at all. I was racking it hard, soft safety on or off and it doesn't hit???

 

Thanks,

Matt

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  • 2 months later...

Hi Matt,

 

Happy New year.

 

Life has been such that we have been busy with stuff that takes us away from the stuff that is fun, including this.

 

Anyway, had a free moment and thought to check here.

 

Glad the shroud worked for you, weird as it might be.

 

On the stock the only thought I had was Richard's Microfit Stocks in LA. He can make most anything and in whatever grade wood/price you want. Give him a call and see what he can do for you. He's on the web.

 

Brad

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