Need Help With My New To Me 7Mm/8Mm Rifle

[DonziGT230]

New subscriber with a possibly tired set of questions.

 

The more I try to learn about this weapon the more confused I get. Some of what I'll state may seem educated while some will likely be ignorant. I've been scouring the interwebs for a couple weeks now to no avail. I'm not a gunsmith or a pro by any stretch, just an enthusiast who's trying to become educated about what he's got in his hands. I'll start with it's markings. At the barrel's end on the left it's marked "CAL 7MM" and on the right it's marked "MADE IN TURKEY" below that is "CAL ST. ALB. VT". At the front of the receiver it has TC, the crescent moon with a star in it, AS FA, ANK ARA, 1936-this I've learned is pretty common. On the left it has some worn down sandscript. At the back is "22611", I assume a serial number.(?) The 22611 is also on the rear sight on it's 3 parts. On the bolt handle near the center is "220". The button that lets you load singles while retaining a full mag has been ground flush. From what I've learned these were originally made as 7mm rifles and were later converted to 8mm. From all I can find they were refitted with 8mm. barrels but it makes no sense to me that the barrel is marked as a 7mm so I assume it was just bored out to an 8. It does measure out to 8ish mm. and 7.9X57 rounds will chamber, so I assume it's been converted. I believe it to be an 1888 or GEW88 with a later stock, I think I determined it to be a 1893(?), but there have been way too many long nights searching to remember exactly. I read that the receiver or barrel should be stamped with 8mm., but don't see that. I've also read that there should be an "S" or "Z" denoting the bore diameter but don't see those either. The rifling looks quite worn but no obvious damage. I did an at home bore check and come up with .315, .325, and .329 around the circumference of my slug. I bought some milsurp. 7.9x57 ammo (I think it's Turk, headstamped 11 52 with stars on the left & right) after reading that modern 'hunting' ammo is too hot for these rifles. Then I read that milsup. is too hot and that modern ammo is the safe bet. DAMN! The rounds I bought measure .323 which seems safe for my bore measurements. I hope I'm not the only one that gets this confused about these guns. Even if the barrel is too worn to be an accurate rifle, I'd love to shoot it if it's relatively safe. I don't mind it being a wall hanger, but would love to put some life back through it occasionally. I guess my main questions would be; do I have something significantly special or just another common piece of history? Is it potentially safe to shoot with this milsurp ammo? Was it common to rebore the barrels to 8mm and retain the 7mm marking and does this make it more dangerous to shoot than one that had the barrel replaced with an actual 8mm piece? If it does burst is it going to be the bolt blowing back into my face or a receiver or barrel rupture?

 

GREAT thanks to anyone who help me out!

[odies dad]

Welcome to the forum.

Pictures will help with IDing your rifle. It sounds to me like a model 93 or a 1903 Turk, but I can't be sure. Get a good closeup of the action as well an a full length shot. Also the markings on the receiver ring will help.

The US made ammo is really anemic and the mil surp is hot. Keep in mind thet the surplus stuff is what you rifle shot back in its day. The concern with the "hot" loads is aimed more toward the older 88's and such that still have the 318 bores.

It is rather common for the importers to stamp incorrect information on the barrel.

[DonziGT230]

Thank you for the welcoming and reply!

 

I took a bunch of photos but my camera is crap so this is the best I can do. My desire to shoot this rifle is mostly because it would be the most powerful gun I've ever owned so using light loads somewhat defeats the purpose. I've always thought the same as to the milsurp being what it shot back in the day, but with so many warnings floating around it's hard to ignore the potential hazard. My understanding is that as long as the barrel is loose enough it shouldn't be a problem but I don't know. After pushing several test slugs (00 buckshot) through it I decided to try something more "real". I pulled the slug out of one of the bullets I bought for it and used that. It was of course not easy and I didn't push it all the way through, just a few inches. The lands left an impression diameter of .317. At the grooves the bullet grew from its original .323 to .327 at the highest points and left light scuffs at the 'bulge'. It has a 4 right twist.

This to me seems pretty darn loose and probably won't be very accurate, but does it mean it's safe??

[DonziGT230]

I finally managed to remove the stock to see what stampings I could find. I found 7.91, I assume denoting it's rebore. Also has a matching serial#. And 10-991. the 10 and 991 are actually separated by a square that's stamped diagonally. There are tons of other numbers and symbols all over the underside of the barrel and receiver. I'm going to clean it up well, get some white chalk to fill them, and find a better camera to photograph it when I can find one.

[bja105]

7.91 is the Turkish stamp indicating it is probably a 8x57. The 7mm stamp is probably from the importer, and probably a mistake. I'm not aware of any turks being rebored by the arsenal.

[karlunity]

It looks to me like a 03 turk.

That is a mauser made in Germany and sold to the old Ottoman Empire.

I have one and have shot many rounds of 8mm with no problem.

 

That assumes that the bore and receiver on yours is good.

If there is any question have a smith look at it.

 

karl

[DonziGT230]

Thank you for your responses.

 

The 7mm mark is very neat and clean and matching the other stuff at the barrel's end. The 7.91 I found after taking it apart on the underside of the barrel and is a different stamping that looks more like it was done with hand held punches. The photos I've been able to find of other's rifles shows visible threads where the barrel connects to the receiver, mine doesn't have that. The barrel is staked with a punch to the receiver and has matching serial# so it appears to be original. I did read somewhere that some of these may have been rebored instead of having the barrels replaced when they went to 8mm. The more I search on this the more I find it to be very uncommon, but I may just be missing something. I'm very glad you guys are helping me find the answers to this rifle, it's starting to look like it may be one of those odd-balls.

[Rojelio]

What you have is a Turk 93 small ring mauser most probably in 8x57, but, the chambering needs to be confirmed, bore condition and headspace checked before firing.

[Spiris]

If it has a cartridge cut off on the right side of the action, and it looks like it might have, along with Farsi script on the left side of the action, chances are it is a Turk '93. It appears to have been converted to 8mm Mauser with the notched receiver and the 7.91 mark on the barrel. They were originally chambered in 7.65x53 and were converted to 8mm in the year stamped on the top of the receiver.

The 7mm marking is a puzzle, and as mentioned, may be a mistake by Century Arms when they marked the barrel import information near the muzzle.

I would be a bit cautious shooting actual Turk Mauser ammo, as some are full power, and it is a small ring action. It's likely it has digested a ton of it already over it's life, but I would be cautious anyway.

 

Here's a link to some good information on Turk Mausers, but maybe you already know about it.

 

http://www.turkmauser.com/models.aspx

 

 

Spiris

[gitano]

The most important information is the slugged bore. If it reads .317" for the bore and .323-ish for the grooves, then it is an "8mm" rifle. The chambering for that bore in that rifle would be very strange if it were other than 8x57 Mauser. The "7mm mark is very clear" is VERY odd. The 7.91 stamp is VERY NORMAL and indicates an 8x57 Mauser chambering. 7.91 is typical of the European nomenclature of the 8mm caliber, especially for WWII millitary arms. Today, most firearms with .323 calibers use the "8mm" designation.

 

With the exception of the "7mm mark" your rifle is about as typical as they come. The SIMPLEST but MOST EXPENSIVE thing for you to do is take it to a COMPETENT gunsmith and have him determine the CHAMBERING. You have already determined the CALIBER - it IS .323 or 8mm. (Sadly, world-wide, the term "caliber" is incorrectly applied to describe the CHAMBERING.) The more difficult but cheaper method is to cast the chamber yourself using CerroSafe. If you're interested, I'm sure there are plenty of folks willing to offer assistance, myself included, and YouTube probably has several "how-tos" on it. HOWEVER...

 

If you can get an 8x57 Mauser cartridge chambered with the bolt closed, AND the bore slugs with a groove depth of .323", then it is chambered for the 8x57 Mauser cartridge.

 

I have NEVER heard of 7mm military barrels being rebored to 8mm bores. That's not to suggest that I have heard of everything and therefore know that they never were, it is simply to state that in 15 years of studying and collecting milsurps, I have never personally heard of that. It would be more expensive to rebore a rifle than to rebarrel it. First it would have to be rebored to 0.315", then it would need the rifling to be recut. (You can't hammer-forge a rebored barrel.) The cost of those operations would be greatly in excess of what a new, mass-produced barrel would cost to manufacture and screw on. Governements are not very interested in producing "precision" arms, but they (except the Soviets) would like their soldiers to be able to hit a man-sized target at 300m. In order to get a rebored barrel to reach even that level of precision, "attention" would have to be paid to the process. "Attention" translates to TIME and MONEY. Governments hate to spend time or money where they don't NEED to. Reboring is time and money spent unnecessarily UNLESS you cannot get new barrels.

 

I have some milsurp rifles with 'enlarged' bores. With bullets of nominal (standard) diameter (caliber), they shoot "patterns" (ala a shotgun), not "groups". These are all Soviet-made rifles. Most of the Mausers and Mauser 'descendants' shoot fairly well. I learned a little trick that works pretty slick for slugging a barrel from breech to muzzle: Make your slug from aluminum foil. Using aluminum foil serves two purposes: 1) It can be made to fit your bore. There is no need to try to find something that's "close". 2) As you push it through the bore, aluminum 'grabs' a little better than lead, and you can feel both 'rough' spots, and 'wide' spots as you move down the bore. That is good information to have. Also keep in mind that whatever dimensions your slug turns out to be, that will be the SMALLEST dimension of the barrel. There could be A LOT of the barrel that is larger. By 'feeling' the bore from breech to muzzle, you'll get a much better idea of what your whole bore is really like.

 

This to me seems pretty darn loose and probably won't be very accurate, but does it mean it's safe??

 

You'll have to define what "accurate" means to you. Depending on your ability to shoot open sights, THE RIFLE, as you have described it, should have no problem keeping 10 shots inside a 6" circle at 100m. Turk '38s with "reasonable" bores can keep 10 shots inside 3 inches at 100m. There is no issue of safety.

 

In closing let me review:

 

1) You HAVE determined that the bore of the barrel is "8mm". There is NO confusion about that.

2) The chambering MAY be 'strange' but it is HIGHLY UNLIKELY that it is OTHER THAN 8x57 Mauser. This can be CONFIRMED by chambering an 8x57 Mauser cartridge. If the bolt closes on an 8x57 Mauser cartridge, then the ONLY thing it could be chambered in OTHER THAN 8x57 Mauser is a longer cartridge like the 8mm-06, or the 8x63. Both of those EXTREMELY UNLIKELY. And in this case, neither are "7mm".

3) Ignore all the "sky is falling" that you may hear about "excessive headspace". That is a boogey man hang over from the earliest days of cartridge rifles when cases were "balloon" formed and rifles did not have gas-deflection mechanisms. The ONLY problem that excessive headspace will present for your rifle is reduced case life, and that ONLY IF YOU RELOAD. If you do reload or intend to, "excessive" headspace (which is actually complete BS) is EASILY remedied by PROPER setup of your resizing dies. Again IGNORE ALL fear mongering about "excessive headspace". It HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH SAFETY! It is simply a way for unscrupulous gunsmiths to part you from your money.

 

You should be able to shoot your rifle without fear and enjoy doing it. If you don't reload, American "factory" 8x57 Mauser ammo is particularly anemic and a single box should allow you to get comfortable with your rifle. I would be more than happy to help you with this. If you would like to discuss further, send me a PM and we can go from there.

 

Paul

[gun nutty]

The Spanish did rebore and set-back their 7mm barrels for the 7.62X51 conversions. They even press-fitted a new shoulder at the barrel/receiver junction.

 

If someone told me that the Turks did the same thing, I couldn't argue. It's entirely possible that this was done, and may have saved resources and time.

[gitano]

As I said, I haven't heard of such, but I certainly wouldn't argue against it. I would expect that those that did it, did so because they didn't have a cheaper alternative - new barrels.

 

In this instance, assuming that the barrel was re-bored from .284" caliber and a 7x57 chamber to an 8mm bore, new chambering would be unnecessary because the 7x57 Mauser case is the same as the 8x57 Mauser case other than the diameter of the bullet (caliber). The dimensions of the slug from this specific bore are consistent with the "7.91" stamp found on all of these rifles. The only real question is the chambering, and personally, while it is possible that it is not 8x57 Mauser, the probability of that seems VERY low to me. And VERY easy to check.

 

 

Paul

[Rojelio]

As I said, I haven't heard of such, but I certainly wouldn't argue against it. I would expect that those that did it, did so because they didn't have a cheaper alternative - new barrels.

 

In this instance, assuming that the barrel was re-bored from .284" caliber and a 7x57 chamber to an 8mm bore, new chambering would be unnecessary because the 7x57 Mauser case is the same as the 8x57 Mauser case other than the diameter of the bullet (caliber). The dimensions of the slug from this specific bore are consistent with the "7.91" stamp found on all of these rifles. The only real question is the chambering, and personally, while it is possible that it is not 8x57 Mauser, the probability of that seems VERY low to me. And VERY easy to check.

 

 

Paul

The shoulder is a little further forward on an 8x57 case resulting in a shorter neck as compared to the 7x57.