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Military Firearm Restoration Corner

Type 99 Rechamber


Clemson

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I had a customer to request a rechamber of his Type 99 sporter from 7.7 to 30-06. I refused because of the difference in cartridge diameter at the base (7.7 is .005" larger) and the likely miserable accuracy of the .308 bullet in a .311 bore. I did wonder, however, how often this may have been done. Anyone know??

 

Clemson

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A pal had a 99 back in the 60's that been rechambered to 06. If you fired 9 shots at a paper target at 50 yds it looked like you had cut loose with a 12 ga 000 buck load. :blink:

 

Bout like the Bubbas who rechamber 7.65 Argies to .308 win

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I did wonder, however, how often this may have been done. Anyone know??Clemson

 

 

I can recall seeing numerous Jap rifles converted to 300 Savage when I first started attending gunshows in the early 70's. I've personally shot hundreds and possibly a couple thousand rounds of 7.7 converted from 30/06 brass. I had plenty of split necks but never had one come apart in the cartridge's base. .

 

 

 

A pal had a 99 back in the 60's that been rechambered to 06. If you fired 9 shots at a paper target at 50 yds it looked like you had cut loose with a 12 ga 000 buck load. Bout like the Bubbas who rechamber 7.65 Argies to .308 win

Back in the late 70's I had a 09 Argie that was re-chambered to 30/06. Shot to shot accuracy was mediocre at best but it wouldn't have had any trouble nailing a deer out to about 150 and possibly even as far as 200 yards. I recall having some issues with mil-surp 06 ammo fitting in the mag. Round nosed commercial ammo was a tight fit but it flowed smoothly out of the mag. Just prior to horse trading it away. I pulled some mil-surp 06 and replaced the bullet with Hornady 31's and there was a significant improvement.

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Clemson I think you did the right thing. I don’t think the chamber job would make the gun unsafe but it would shoot like crap.

 

With human nature the way that it is the word would go out that you screwed the gun up. No business needs bad publicity especially gun dealers/smiths.

 

I have heard of 7.7 rifles re-barreled to 30-06 and do real well.

 

The 17 threads/inch however is a real pain unless you have a lathe that can cut metric threads. Old USA lathes like south bend can not cut those threads without special gears.

 

I was at a local dealer one time when a couple of lesser gun owners came in wanting ammo for their 7.7 Jap rifle they picked up at a local estate sale.

 

The gun was re-chambered for another cartridge other than 7.7 but the guy that done the work never marked the barrel

 

The new owners drove 130 miles round trip to buy some 7.7 that wouldn’t fit the chamber.

 

So…

They went to Wal-Mart and the gun guy told them that 308 was the “NEXT SIZE” smaller ammo. So they bought 308 and tried it.

 

Too small but that didn’t stop them from trying to shoot it.

 

Next they tried some 30-06, but the bolt wouldn’t close on it.

 

Eventually they got around to buying some 7.62x54 Russian.

 

The last I heard the gun was re-chambered to 7.62x54.

 

I think they paid $75 for the gun and spent about $200 on different types of ammo and gas before they found the right size ammo.

 

Oh the guys did not bring the gun with them to the dealer they just wanted to know what the next size of ammo was.

 

It seemed that no matter what they guys were told they couldn’t understand, they just wanted to shoot their new gun.

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Clemson I've seen Jap rifles converted to 06 but have never shot one. The best bet in my opinion is to persuade the customer into a re-barrel. For safety's sake the 300 Savage, designed for the Savage 99 lever action rifle. I believe is considerably lower in pressure might be a good alternative to 06. I assume your customer is not a reloader as the easiest path would be simply re-forming 06 brass and loading it with 31 cal bullets. If the customer does not reload and is not capable of substituting the .308 bullets with .312. Chances are good the accuracy will be so lousy your customer will never be satisfied with any 30 caliber conversion.

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Clemson,

 

I'm positive you did the right thing. Although I'm certain you can cut a clean chamber, I'm also certain you would have lost this person as repeat business after you refused to buy him a new barrel because his accuracy sucks. There's no need to be associated with a gun that won't shoot. Sometimes you just have to pass.

 

About all I might've recommended would be to direct the customer to either Old Western Scrouner, Huntington's, Cabela's, or MidwayUSA for the right ammunition and tell him to go shoot it. 7.7 Jap is just as capable of killing deer, hogs, and people as 30-06, .308Win, and 8x57JS are. If the customer is too cheap to buy a new barrel...he needs to cough up the dough for the proper ammunition. That, or trade the rifle off for something he'd be satisfied with.

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Clemson,

 

If the customer is too cheap to buy a new barrel...he needs to cough up the dough for the proper ammunition. That, or trade the rifle off for something he'd be satisfied with.

 

Looks like we all pretty much concur you did the right thing refusing the job. Wish I could recall who it was but somebody was selling 7.7 and some others like 765 Argie and 8MM Lebel Privi Partizan ammo for about 15 bux a box about a month or so ago. I tried searching my old email but can't find it.

 

I recently traded away my all original Type 99. It was a fine specimen built when quality was high with a bright and shiny chrome bore. It has the dust cover, cleaning rod and the aircraft sights or as they are more commonly called sight wings. I never did in the apx 30 years I owned it, ever find a decent original mono-pod. Mono-pods that show up at gunshows are either bent up like a pretzel or obviously a replica the seller is claiming original. I finally gave in and put a replica mono-pod on it.

 

Hated to see the 99 go but I traded it along with an earlier model 6.5 Jap rifle that was put together from parts. I got a US 1917 Eddystone (one of my favorite mil-surps) and an all matching Brazilian 30/06 Mauser. Myself and the local guy I found on the net, were both more than satisfied with the deal.

 

With properly loaded hand loads using re-formed Canadian 30/06 blanks, 8MM Mauser or genuine Norma 7.7 brass. My 99 would shoot groups as good as my 03 Springfield, 09 Argie or any other mil-surp I have shot. I was shooting the now discontinued Hornady 174 gr round nose .313 bullet. I can't recall the powder charge but if my memory is correct I got the best accuracy using IMR 4350. Hornady still makes the same bullet, a 174 gr round nose but have reduced the size to .312. Hear plenty of shooters and collectors calling Jap rifles junk but as far as I'm concerned. Jap rifles are as good if not better than any other bolt action of the era. I had one shooting buddy that absolutely refused to shoot a Jap rifle and if anybody was shooting one he'd put plenty of space between him and the shooter.

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It sounds to me like you did, but by explaining exactly why a certain project will not work in a way that the customer can understand will likely not only prevent hard feelings and loss of further business, but increase customer confidence in your knowledge.

If you just say it won't work, the customer will look elsewhere until they find someone who will do the project and then be unhappy with their work as well. If you tell them why you can't shoot a 458 bullet through a .224 bore, they will likely understand why you won't rechamber their 22 hornet barrel for a 458 Lott.

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  • 3 weeks later...

I had a customer to request a rechamber of his Type 99 sporter from 7.7 to 30-06. I refused because of the difference in cartridge diameter at the base (7.7 is .005" larger) and the likely miserable accuracy of the .308 bullet in a .311 bore. I did wonder, however, how often this may have been done. Anyone know??

 

Clemson

 

Let me give you a totally different prespective. I don't have personal experience on a 30-06 conversion. However, I have two (2) type 99 in 7.7 that I reload for. I have used both 30-06 & 8mm Mauser brass to build Ammo for my Arisakas, but prefer to use Graff 7.7mm Jap brass. I have also used .312, .311, .310, and .308 bullets for my 7.7mm rifles. Not only do I have the full 7.7mm Jap reloading dies, I also have an ancient Lee Classic Reloader in 7.7 Jap. The Lee Classic basically does not resize the brass, except for the neck and so the brass is worked less. The problem with the Lee Classic reloader is that I need to keep spent brass from one rifle identified with the rifle and not neck size it and shoot it in the other type 99 rifle.

 

My experience is that most milsurp firearms have generous cut chambers to allow for some dirt and yet allow the weapon to fire. I have not had problems with spend brass that are fully resized (sometimes to SAMI specifications) bursting. I doubt that 0.005 inch would be a problem on a single use factory brass at standard pressures.

 

Given the above, let me make a few comments based on personal experience with many rounds of ammo.

 

First, the accuracy difference at 100 yards in my 2 rifles between .308 bullets and other bullets of .310 to .311 is trivial. My rifles use iron sights, but I get 2-3 MOA accuracy at 100 yards on a regular basis. If I am on my game I can get 1 to 2 MOA with a single sized bullet. That is good enough for most hunting. I have shot my rifles at 200 yard targets and it gets real hard for me to see the bullseye on a standard NRA target at that distance (so I use a really powerful spotting scope to see how I do between trips to the target) and colored stick on bullseyes.

 

I have not had a case head separation issue on any of the brass that I have reloaded, although by doing a lot of neck resizing, it reduces the "working" of the brass that is a major reason for case head separation. Still not all my brass is just neck resized.

 

Finally most type 99's are very strong actions. There are exceptions with some of the last ditch rifles, but they are the exception. A very famous gun writer and enthusiast did some destructive testing of military surplus firearms from WW2 and found that he could not destroy the Arisaka action, he could load enough powder in a 7.7 mm cartridge to blow the barrel off the action, but not to destroy the action. Obviously something one would not want to replicate, but comforting to know that 30-06 commercially loaded ammo should not be a problem with the action strength.

 

As a craftsman, you have the right to only do work you would be proud of and if you feel that a 30-06 conversion without rebarreling is something you would not be proud of that is your choice. However, I think that the objection of the different bullet diameter is not as great (based on my experience in my two rifles--and similar experience in a Russian MN 1891/30 in 7.62mm or .310 inch) as others have posted. I also feel that for a client that reloaded, this really wouldn't be an issue, if they knew what they were doing. Similarly for a client that didn't reload, and used new factory ammo each time, there would probably not be a problem either.

 

Again, my perspective is different and based on experience with my milsurp rifles and my experience shooting them. Personally, I like the history of the type 99's and one can buy commercial Graff/Hornady 7mm Jap ammo every now and then at prices that are not unreasonable. As such, I think that directly the cient to a mail order supplier of ammo might have been the best course of action, unless they really wanted the conversion and were a knowledgeable shooter.

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..... I think that directly the cient to a mail order supplier of ammo might have been the best course of action, unless they really wanted the conversion and were a knowledgeable shooter.

 

Agreed. I did show the guy the Graf's site while he was in the shop. He was not a reloader, nor did he know much of anything about the rifle or its ballistics. He wanted cheap ammo to hunt with. Given that firing a box over 5 years was unlikely with this fellow, I think he can do nicely with Grafs.

 

Clemson:)

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  • 3 months later...

Robert357 you have given a very good treatiest and there is very little I can add. I have a T99 that was converted to 30-06 by the Japanese or Chinese under US supervision for the Korean Conflict. It is stamped Cal 30 U S. I feel sure accuracy must have been acceptable to have issued them to troops.

 

riceone

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