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What Should I Know Are Warning Signs If They Appear Testing .300 Win Mag Turk


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I have not been able to find any info on someone who has actually rebarreled a turk to .300 win. just alot of debate and conversation. The rough work is done (bolt welded, rails opened ,face opened extractor opened, mag opened) everything need to be polished but it feeds and extracts fine. waiting on reamer, but barrel is on (700 rem take-off sonic threaded for me). First couple will most likely be from a string but what should I look for on the fired brass or the action and barrel?

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Same warning signs as a normal rebarrel job, hard bolt lift, "smooshed" brass, primer pushed out, cracked brass.

 

If you are going to fire via string for the first couple I'd use commercial ammo to see how everything holds up to those loads.

 

Jimro

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With the 300 win mag max pressure set at 64,000 psi, it's a little more than what the action has experienced in its prior life. It is capable of handling this, but knowing that some soft Turk mauser actions have experienced some set back with the 8mm, I would check the no-go gauge after firing a few rounds to just verify that things are ok. Chances are everything will be ok as most turk k kales are solid. With a proper chambering job, case head expansion should not exceed .003 at the belt. Normal expansion is .001- .002 with FL sized brass. At .003+, your pressures are too high.

Have fun and keep us posted.

 

Spiris

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If the primer bursts or case head melts upon firing sending hot gas and burning hot gas/powder/brass debris into your forhead and cheeks (the 98 will probably do a good job protecting your eyes) you have a problem.

 

I had this problem shooting some Turkish surplus ammo in a Turk. The headspace checked-out OK so I suspect that the cartridge was a bad apple. Anyone want about 400 rounds of surplus Turk ammo?

 

To be serious, the advice you've gotten above is really good. Start low and work up and keep an eye on the primers and case head expansion and you should be fine. Commercial ammo will tell you what the primers should look like.

 

As an aside (I'm getting to that age where everything reminds me of something else), have you ever looked at the primers of factory 270 Win cartridges? Talk about flat. Even US manufacterers load the 270 up.

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Guest Uncle Cautious

First thing is to ask yourself is ......do I REALLY want to do this? If you hear a small voice screaming "NO" ..obey it.... sometimes the angels are right.

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Guest Guest

First thing is to ask yourself is ......do I REALLY want to do this? If you hear a small voice screaming "NO" ..obey it.... sometimes the angels are right.

 

Uncle chicken, please elaborate on why this is a bad idea? Or did the voices in your head tell you to write this?

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I doubt that the Turk action will "blow apart" on the first pull of the trigger. Or the second. Or the third. What will happen with a soft receiver is that set-back will occur in the locking lug recesses.

 

The 98 Mauser was designed inherently as a safe and strong action. I wouldn't be concerned about the small diameter barrel shank of the Turk; there are commercial actions with roughly the same shank diameter (Husqvarna, Krico), but the Turk has much more receiver metal around the shank. The materials should be fine too.

 

Folks on this board have commented that the Turks can be soft. You're obviously concerned about it too, or you wouldn't be asking questions about it. I would have no problem chambering a Turk for a 300 Winchester Magnum PROVIDED I KNEW THE HEAT TREATMENT OF THE RECEIVER. The only way to be assured of that knowledge would be to get the thing heat treated. See if you can piggy-back with one of the others here when the next batch is sent in.

 

You've put much work into creating a fine action. Why not have the peace of mind knowing that your efforts weren't for naught?

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I'll print the facts and let you draw your own conclusions:

 

Allright, we all know that the rem 700 has a thread diameter of 1.06" vs the SR Mauser of 0.980". Doesn't sound like much difference huh? Well, lets look at the minor thread diameters. The Rem calculates out to 0.97881" or roughly the same as the Turk's major diameter which is why we can rethread rem takeoffs. The Turk's minor calculates out to 0.873278833" So we have the Rem at 0.979" vs the Turk at .0873". Let's subtract the case head size (belt) of a magnum -0.532". This leaves the Rem with chamber walls of 0.223405" vs the Turk of 0.170639417".

 

Chamber walls of 0.223" vs 0.170" for a difference of 0.053".

 

Let the discussion begin.

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I think you should fire factory round via a string while checking head space frequently.

I've been thinking of building a similar rifle, keep us posted.

Kenny

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No disagreement on the dimensional data (I'd rather use the diameter forward of the belt though).

 

Am I looking at the minor thread diameter correctly? Thead Depth = (Cos 30) X .0625 <--- For 16V threads, of course.

 

The Weatherby has a barrel shank of 1.060 (per De Haas) with 16V threads, with a thread depth of approx. 0.0541 (x2). That's 0.9518". Subtract the belt diameter of the .460 Wby (0.6035") and divide by 2 to get a wall thickness of 0.174". And the Weatherby has a smaller receiver ring too. (1.342 VS 1.410).

 

The small ring Mauser with 12V threads actually has a wall thickness of 0.152, according to the above calculations.

 

I've seen an interesting article link posted here about wall thickness recommendations. The article stated that both the Weatherby and Remington were marginal at best for the bigger boys...

 

Both Husqvarna's HVA and and the HVA-8000 were offered in 7mm Rem Mag, and the 8000 was offered in 300 Win Mag. Both rifles had the small ring Mauser barrel shank (.985", 12V) and small-ring diameter receivers as opposed to the large M-98 receiver.

 

I'm not sure what to think. Barrel material and hardness should come into play as well. If it's a bad idea, it's a bad idea. I don't want anyone to blow up.

 

With the feed rails and bolt face altered for a magnum case, the only other option that I can think of would be a 450 Marlin or 458X2inch. Both cartridges operate at lower pressures (actually, a Wildcat can operate at whatever one wants it to operate at) and should be fine. I doubt the Marlin 1895 barrel wall thickness exceeds that of the Turk.

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I am interested to see how this comes out.

 

My only input is that I have measured the threads on a Browning A-Bolt SS barrel chambered in 7 Rem Mag and they were too small to be turned down to Turk threads. If they are smaller than what we have to play with here, and yet the rifle is still safe to shoot, I have to wonder just how much margin for safety you really need? That was a good point about the Husky's and I know a guy who's built a 458 Win on a Mexican Mauser. Apparently, all things are possible if you're willing to risk them.

 

No matter what though, please do wear eye protection when you shoot this rifle; you know...just in case...

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I have rethought my position on checking the no-go gauge for headspace after firing a few rounds. It is possible to get a false reading because you are actually measuring in an area not fully affected by set back. That would only occur in the fully closed position. It is difficult to check set back without removing the barrel. Sorry for the misinformation.

 

Spiris

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a while back i had a parker hall barrel that was cut to fit a turk and chambered in .300 win mag...and a mag face bolt on ebay

...guy who won the auction said to just send the bolt...like the barrel was only good for a garden stake...guess thats were it will go if it will ever rain!!!!!!

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I have rethought my position on checking the no-go gauge for headspace after firing a few rounds. It is possible to get a false reading because you are actually measuring in an area not fully affected by set back. That would only occur in the fully closed position. It is difficult to check set back without removing the barrel. Sorry for the misinformation.

 

Spiris

 

Not if you use a go gage.

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I have rethought my position on checking the no-go gauge for headspace after firing a few rounds. It is possible to get a false reading because you are actually measuring in an area not fully affected by set back. That would only occur in the fully closed position. It is difficult to check set back without removing the barrel. Sorry for the misinformation.

 

Spiris

 

It seems in a case like this you could check for setback with a depth micrometer from the muzzle.

You would need to use a steel rod slightly smaller than the bore and the ends squared, length would depend on your mic.

Establish a baseline measurment before firing factory ammo via the string.

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It seems in a case like this you could check for setback with a depth micrometer from the muzzle.

You would need to use a steel rod slightly smaller than the bore and the ends squared, length would depend on your mic.

Establish a baseline measurment before firing factory ammo via the string.

 

It's even easier to use a go gage to monitor setback.

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I read with interest, as I have 300WM and 7mmRM Rem700 take off barrels and 1903 Turkish Mauser actions.

 

I think they are strong enough, but maybe not long enough.

If I cut at the ramp in front, it undermines the bottom lug race.

 

1938 K.Kale type Turks may be long enough.

 

In 1999 BIG5 started selling VZ24s for $70 on sale.

I knew those actions were better than the Turks, and I think the 300 Win Mag deserves the better action.

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Clark,

 

I think your are right. It would be similar to chambering a standard 98 for the H&H length cartridges only not as bad. I think the length issue can be overcome, but the way to approach it would be to try and open as much as possible to the rear then work forward.

 

If anyone can prove the magnum conversion is safe, it is you.

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Guest Uncle Cautious

I say don't do it! there are far too many better actions suitable for this calibre at or near the same price...why in the world take a chance of injuring yourself or some dumass reloader down the road that winds up with this questionable combination? just to say you can do it? Damned poor reasoning to die or be maimed. You can argue the measurements and the theories until Hell freezes over and you skate around.....but the facts don't change...the Turk is inferiour to a standard Europeon 98 action both being in equal condition.

Like I said before....listen to that voice telling you that this ain't smart......The "Bubba Brotherhood" of gun builders may not be the best.....but they ain't stupid!

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I was away over Easter and this is my first chance to look at the posts I have a plan in mind for testing. I will fire a box of ammo checking headspace and cases between every shot (all fred from a string) Would 20 rounds be enough of a test? I appreciate "uncle cautions'" concern. I do want to test it though and I am more than willing to post photos of everything, brass the primers and what ever else some one may think would give an indication of the test results for you gentlemen with more experience to take a look at.

 

 

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Guest Uncle Cautious

Being a "belted" magnum, some of the usual signs of pressure won't apply, all the primers should be flattened, and....while on that subject, be sure to check your firing pin protrusion before firing......if too long the primer will be pierced and that ain't good! Akin to a cutting torch with a pencil flame in your face...lots of gas and primer particles! The amount of protrusion varies from make/model ...so I suggest no more than .050 Inch protrusion.

The belt on the magnum case moves forward from a standard case's location...the standard case will show a ring of bright metal just in front of the extractor cut on the case's base so...with the belted case look above the belt to where the case thins, (1/4" or so,) there will be SOME swell and brightness there...this is normal, what ain't normal is a sharply defined "ring" of case stretch which is the pre-cursor to case seperation, the real test on incipient case seperation is to get a thin piece of steel wire, sharpen one end and bend a "L" in the sharp end, slip this into the case and allow the sharp edge to ride along the inside wall of the case above the "belt"...if you feel a groove.....QUIT SHOOTING THE RIFLE!

Of course the indicator is the bolt won't lift or is damned hard to lift......if this happens....the lugs are galled and will continue to gall until the headspace gets so bad that the head seperates from the case and brazes the bolt to the case and chamber.....and it does happen...I have seen it TOO many times...and in all the incidents that this happened all but one was a "belted" magnum,

I cannot say this any plainer....don't tempt the Fates.......you may not be pretty now but the addition of a bolt handle protruding from your fore head ain't gonna make you prettier! I know! seen a fellow shooting a S&W 1500(Howa) 6MM Rem. Cal. with the bolt's right hand lug buried in his head just above his glasses....he was shooting a right hand action left handed.....when his "reload" grenaded the receiver.....the recoil peeled the lug and sent it tumbling into the shooter's face.....he was D.O.A. at the bench. In case you think I'm trying to scare you...I am...but this did happen here in Va. about twenty years ago.....the state crime lab in Roanoke asked my help in diagnosing the cause. I did not enjoy that task.

Take all pre-cautions and be safe, as I said so many times before...it just ain't worth it!

 

Tyrell Rivers, U.S.A. (Retired)

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Guest Guest_kenak2_*

Check out Kunhausen's method for proof firing.

I read it last night and it involves oiled cartridges.

sounds like it would be good for what you're doing.

Kenny

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Look all, I'm normally big on the whole headspace issue but in this case it is the last thing I'd be concerned about. The real issue as I see it is "how much material is surrounding the chamber walls?"

 

I can't confirm or refute the previous poster's comments on the Weatherby. If it is true, then one could likely conclude that then too must the Turk SR magnum conversion be. I however suscribe to the notion that there are better actions available for very little increase in cost. Like the vz24 that the poster alluded to.

 

Hatcher noted that in experiments he did with the '03 springfield, the chamber walls were reduced to only .150" and they held with NORMAL sevice loads. However, things went south very quickly when pressures started to increase. The calculations I did place the Turk Magnum conversion chamber walls just slightly over that minimum. Which I suppose should suffice if you never had a pressure spike. Big IF in my book. Frankly I don't have the time or energy to either prove or disprove the safety issue, thus I will simply avoid it by not using the SR thread 98's for magnum conversions. I ahve boxes of both actions. The SR Turks will be built into -06 casehead derived chamberings and the others would be used for any Magnum cartridges I might decide to build.

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