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Model P Load Limit


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I have a few Model P revolvers. I asked Cimarron what the max fps is. They wouldn't answer that, but told me factory loads that aren't Plus P, or high power. I see about 920 fps as the highest standard load I can find.

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So, that's like an original Colt SAA model reproduction, right? From what I understand, the Colts are good for the standard 45 LC round you'd buy in the store, like at a Walmart, not hotter, and the ammo manufacturers download the 45 LC to reflect that. Now, I haven't looked into it real hard, but that's what I seem to recall. So, I would pick a standard velocity sold today for the Colts and not go over that. The Rugger single actions, like my Convertible, will take anything you can throw at them, including loading 45LC up to standard 44 mag velocities, from what people tell me, but I wouldn't try that with something like an original SAA or the reproduction.

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Tony if I'm not mistaken I believe the XD-1 is a self defense load. Personally I'd avoid using it in a repro. For factory ammo I suggest Winchester or Remington factory loaded with a lead slug weighing about 245-255 grs. Nothing wrong shooting a few SD loads but repeated use may cause your revolver to, for the lack of a better term, become loose. In the 70's I had a repro I shot loose warming up handloads. I started having timing problems and backed some screws after shooting a couple dozen rounds. For self defense a mildly loaded lead slug weighing about 250grs leaving the muzzle at 900+ FPS will drop a bad guy.

 

Like Doc I've really heated up some 45 Colt loads to shoot in my Ruger and also my Rossi Puma lever action. Following published "Ruger Only" data I nearly duplicate 44 mag velocity. The Ruger handles it no problem but my Rossi indicated by the flat primers I was pushing it.

 

For what it might be worth. The 45 Colt repro I had years ago 44 mag cartridges chambered what felt and looked like perfect.

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XD-1 is 920 fps, and is a self-defense round. One other option is to load black powder.

I really like the black powder substitute Hodgden's Triple 7. Easier to ignite than Pyrodex and Hodgden claims it is non corrosive. I've never used 777 in a cartridge but had good results in an 1858 Remington reproduction. Best of all, I didn't have to tear it down and scrub it with soap and hot water when I got home. My guess if the XD ammo is shooting 920FPS its probably within a safe pressure window.

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I have a few Model P revolvers. I asked Cimarron what the max fps is. They wouldn't answer that, but told me factory loads that aren't Plus P, or high power. I see about 920 fps as the highest standard load I can find.

It's a beautiful revolver that deserves to be shot at the range. If you wanted a hotrod, a Ruger, a T/C, or Dan Wesson would have been the way to go. There's nothing to apologize for when it comes to punching paper with mild loads.

 

I've always considered Hercules reloading data in the "moderate" range. This 1983 manual lists the 45LC, with a 200 grain jacketed and a 250 lead:

 

http://www.mediafire.com/download/176fc50ii866mdb/Helcules_1983_-_Pistol_%26_Revolver.png

 

I think "velocity" is the wrong question; rather, C.U.P. is what I'd be looking at. I'm seeing the 45 LC maxed at 12,600 C.U.P., right in the same territory as the 44 Special.

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There's nothing to apologize for when it comes to punching paper with mild loads.

 

 

Some of the hard core paper punchers I know through my gun collector's club have named their paper punching loads "powder puff" loads. Just enough oomph to clear the paper at short ranges.

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I don't want to buy more guns so I'm thinking the Model P in the hallway, or on the fridge would work with the right load. I have a lot of "mouse fart" loads, but nothing higher. I'll look at the loads you folks suggested. Other than the book, I have no way of knowing CUP. I put my pea shooter .22 mag revolver in the car, so have to have something on the other end of the house. So far all our problems have been snakes, possums, cats, dogs, and squirrels- not human.

 

Just looked- I have Universal Clays powder, which isn't on the Hercules data. I do have a couple books in the garage though.

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You might also look at the loads for 45 ACP. If I recall, they are just about the same as "stock" old-time 45LC loads, pressure/performance wise. 230GR in front of Unique or Bullseye would be plenty of oomph for anything that walks the night.

 

Here's some load data, including for Clays powder, for 45 ACP and LC. Sourced from a database I found on teh Intr4w3bz, y0:

Cartridge BulletWtinGn Bullet Powder Grains Velocity Pressure LoadSource
45 ACP 230 230 FMC Bullseye 5 905 16200 Alliant
45 ACP 230 230 FMC Unique 6 895 16000 Alliant
45 ACP 230 230 GR. HDY FMJ FP CLAYS 4 732 17000 hodgdon
45 ACP 230 230 GR. HDY FMJ FP Clays 4.00 732 17,000 CUP Hodgdon Web - Pistol data
45 ACP 230 230 GR. LRN Clays 4.00 793 16,800 CUP Hodgdon Web - Pistol data
45 ACP 230 230 JHP Bullseye 5.4 865 19200 Alliant
45 ACP 230 230 JHP Unique 6.4 880 19400 Alliant
45 ACP 230 230 L (Target) Bullseye 4 810 13900 Alliant
45 ACP 230 230 L (Target) Unique 5 790 11800 Alliant
45 ACP 230 CAST: Lyman #452374 230gr Bullseye 4.7 854 CastLoads L1
45 ACP 230 CAST: Lyman #452374 230gr Unique 7.2 967 CastLoads L1
45 ACP 230 CAST: RCBS 45-230-RN 230gr bullseye 5 835 CastData R1
45 ACP 230 CAST: RCBS 45-230-RN 230gr unique 5.7 815 CastData R1
45 Colt 230 230 GR. CAST LRNFP Clays 5.40 865 13,900 CUP Hodgdon Web - Pistol data
45 Colt 230 CAST: 230 GR. CAST LRNFP Clays 5.40 865 13,900 CUP Hodgdon Web - Pistol data



Use at your own risk, etc.

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Clays is a bit fast burning for 45 Colt imho but if Clays is all you have on hand using Doc's 45 ACP data will keep it safe. Never heard any complaints about 45 ACP not being a man stopper. Do a net search using Cowboy Action Data as a guide. Keep velocities at or below CAS rules will likely come up with a safe Clays load for 45 Colt. I believe CAS rules insist muzzle velocity be below 1,000FPS. If I'm not mistaken it takes apx 800FPS to get reliable expansion in gel with pure lead. The pure lead projectile can be either a cast or the soft nose of a jacketed bullet.

 

My favorite powders for 45 Colt (showing my age) are Herco and Unique. If I want to push it, I use 2400 with a mag primer. I'm usually launching a home cast, gas checked, hard lead slugs in the 245 - 250 range. The downside to my favorite powders are they don't meter worth a tinker's darn. Have to either drop loads at least a full grain below using a powder measurer or progressive press or scale each and every load. From memory I believe 10.0 grs of Herco gave me the best shot to shot accuracy especially in my Rossi lever action rifle. I also used the same powder charge in 44 Special with lead slugs in the 210 - 240 gr range. I'm working from memory so please verify my 10.0 recomendation with published data. My memory like the ol'grey mare "ain't what she used to be". My accurate 45 Colt loads were shot in a Ruger, Rossi rifle or a 460 S&W and might be to hot for your repro.

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I have Universal Clays, not the regular Clays. It's old powder, but it still burns. Thank you for the input.

My bullets make a nice flower shape- absolutely flat, when they hit. Probably not the best choice for my intentions.

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Didn't know "universal clays" was different. This is what I have:

 

Cartridge BulletWtinGn Bullet Powder Grains Velocity Pressure LoadSource

45 Colt 160 160 GR. CAST LRNFP Universal Clays 9.50 1197 12,900 CUP Hodgdon Web - Pistol data

45 Colt 180 180 GR. CAST LRNFP Universal Clays 9.20 1161 13,900 CUP Hodgdon Web - Pistol data

45 Colt 200 200 GR. CAST LRNFP Universal Clays 8.8 1067 13600 hodgdon

45 Colt 200 200 GR. CAST LRNFP Universal Clays 8.80 1067 13,600 CUP Hodgdon Web - Pistol data

45 Colt 200 200 GR. HDY XTP Universal Clays 9.00 1068 13,900 CUP Hodgdon Web - Pistol data

45 Colt 215 215 GR. CAST LRNFP Universal Clays 8.60 1001 13,800 CUP Hodgdon Web - Pistol data

45 Colt 230 230 GR. CAST LRNFP Universal Clays 8.10 975 13,800 CUP Hodgdon Web - Pistol data

45 Colt 250 250 GR. CAST LRNFP Universal Clays 7.80 941 13,000 CUP Hodgdon Web - Pistol data

45 Colt 250 250 GR. HDY XTP Universal Clays 8.50 856 14,000 CUP Hodgdon Web - Pistol data

45 Colt 255 Bull-X 255 SWC Universal Clays 8.5 875 Taffin

45 Colt 260 260 GR. SPR GDHP Universal Clays 8 813 14000 hodgdon

45 Colt 260 260 GR. SPR JHP Universal Clays 8.00 813 14,000 CUP Hodgdon Web - Pistol data

45 Colt 300 300 GR. SIE JFP Universal Clays 7.3 700 13700 hodgdon

45 Colt 300 300 GR. SIE JFP Universal Clays 7.30 700 13,700 CUP Hodgdon Web - Pistol data

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  • 4 weeks later...

I shot 5 rounds of Hornady Critical Defense out of the Cimarron Model P without any problems. I wore safety glasses. Glad I did because I shot at an air compressor motor and a chip hit me in the cheekbone. Hornady wrote that these are 14,000 psi.

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