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Military Firearm Restoration Corner

Swede Strenght And Gas Handling (question)


littlecanoe

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I've read a lot of conflicting information on the strength of the 96 mauser. One group states that they are weak, with the other states that they are just as strong but don't handle gas well. The pro-strength group sites the metallurgy of the Swede's being superior to all the other makers of that day.

 

My question is what is reality? Does the Swede stand out as stronger than the 98? Have there been mass failures with that action compared to other small ring designs or the 98? Is this documentable?

 

Is the main difference a small ring and no or smaller gas ports on the bolt and only 2 lugs?

 

Would the safety of a 96 be greatly increased by simply adding gas ports on the bolt to resemble the 98?

 

Then we have the Husqvuarna company that built 8x57's on the 96 action.

 

I'm a bit confused. Any solid answers or is most of this argument speculation that has gotten passed around and changed over time?

 

THanks,

LC

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460 Weatherby all the way!!!

 

Actually, the Swedes are better made, with better materials and better metalurgy than their other small-ring counterparts.

 

I own one, and am a big fan of them. If they were available at $79.95 again, I'd probably get 20.

 

You can add a FN-style shroud to get the gas deflection, and the gas ports are in the bolt body are a bonus. Safety lug? Dunno... I don't know that it's likely that BOTH lugs would shear. I'm probably less concerned about the safety lug than the other components.

 

With all that said, I'd still limit pressures to around the 45k CUP limit generally established for small rings. Z1r made a comment (I think it was him anyway) a while ago about Kimber-converted 96s to .308 Win - most or many had locking-lug setback. I believe him. These actions are generally older. Maybe heat treatment would help, but theses are still older actions.

 

I think the 8MM Mauser would be "OK", but nothing more. These rifles feed 7X57, 6.5X55, 6.5X57, 257 Roberts, 9X57, 9.3X57 like they were made for for it (in reality, they were :) ). Small ring Mausers make wonderful, elegant carbines. Why not use the Swede action to enhance it's traits?

 

I have reached a point where I am "anti-magnum". I enjoy shooting, and magnums just take the fun out of a day at the range. I'd rather carry a lightweight, 6.5 to 7 lb., 20" barreled carbine in lieu of a 10 lb. magnum monster. At 200 yards, a deer is just as dead with a 7x57 as with a 7mm Mag.

 

I just don't view the Swede's "limitations" as limitations. A Swede action fits well within what I consider a working rifle.

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Gun Nutty,

 

You took the post right where I was thinking with your reply. The G 30/44? I believe, is a nice action but more compact, more streamlined, a bit prettier than the 98. I have 2 CG's that have lost collector value. I was thinking through my collection and asking myself, "why not the 96". It would be a bit lighter, more streamlined etc..

 

What I have in mind is s 257 Rob. on the 96 action. Not sure but might look at the pressures of an AI as I've heard that this caliber actually gains in AI config.

 

The remaining parts of the puzzle are 1. would it enhance safety to add a new deflecting shroud

2. would it help safety to add gas ports to the bolt like the 98

3. would rehardening this steel really add to safety and increase overall strength

 

I've about talked myself into this project. I just want to do it right and the CG action would be so easy to clean up.

 

LC

 

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littlecanoe,

 

It sounds like you want a 1960's era Husqvarna sporter. They were built on the 96 style receiver with a bolt that has a safety lug like a M98 and cocks on opening. I believe they were chambered in .257 Roberts. I see them from time to time at auction . You could probably sell one of the CG's and pay for a large part of the cost.

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BOBVZ,

 

Didn't know such a monster had already been made.

 

Problem with the CG's is that they have already been modified, I rescued them, and have lost value.

 

I do like the idea though.

 

lc

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Is the Swede a good action to invest some time and money in? Yes. I think it makes a fine sporter, if done correctly, and I think it would be sellable on down the road (if that's some litmus test).

 

1. Yes, it would enhance safety adding an FN shroud. I have a good amount of range time, and am careful with my handloads. I have never pierced a primer or ruptured a case-head, in any rifle or pistol. Adding the FN shroud will help deflect gases. You'll need a trigger safety, but you were probably replacing the trigger, and the Bold unit in cheap enough.

 

2. I don't think adding additional ports on the bolt body will help. The Swede has two small holes; one's at 1:30, and the other is at 9 o'clock (closed bolt). I don't know that additional holes in the bolt body will help. I'd need some additional input on this, but I'd rather drill two holes on either side of the front receiver ring, immediately behind the barrel face. Many modern bolt actions have this, and it directs gases out of the rifle, instead of into it. The Spanish 93 has one; a second would be better. The locking lugs would be at 12 and 6 o'clock as the rifle is cocked, and they would not block escaping gases.

 

3. I think re-hardening is a great idea. Peace of mind. I think it would enhance the safety. I don't know that I'd do it; it would depend on how the action looks (seating surfaces, wear, etc.).

 

The .257 Roberts is great. I think the 6.5X57 would be better, but not much to sniffle about, either way. I'd skip the AI. It's out of the safety zone on the Swede.

 

Now bear in mind... If you took a Swede action, kept the original shroud, didn't drill any additional safety holes, didn't heat treat it, and added a modern .257 Roberts barrel - no one would probably ever question the quality or safety of the rifle. I'd gladly add such a rifle to my battery with joy.

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I own 2 96's,a Husky 38,Husqvarna .308,and a sportered 96 with 20'' barrel,Bold trigger,and Choate stock.If you have a 96 with a good barrel,and almost all are,there's no way I'd change it.6.5X55 is a great caliber.I've shot a boatload of shell through my .308 and never have had any wear show up,but it's a Husky sporter model,not military,and made around '73.Chambering a small-ring for too big a caliber is like hooking a Volkswagon to a travel trailer.It'll pull it,but for how long,and is anyone going to get hurt when it doesn't work anymore.I'd like to have a 96 Swede action in .257 Bob someday too.Jerry

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Jerry,

I'll mention that I have a VZ 24 with a 6.5x55 barrel on it. My first sporter. I've picked up 2 CG's since then. The one was shortened and is still in the process of becoming a Mannlicher. The other, 257 sounds nice. I'd like a 25 cal for some reason. No really good reason other than I don't have one :rolleyes:

 

It would be a nice coyote whacker! Well, the Vz in 6.5 with 95 grain hornady's is getting in the respectable range for accuracy and would vent a yote nicely also.

 

...........but I don't have a Bob.

 

Steve

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Have to qustion "Kimber-converted 96s to .308 Win - most or many had locking-lug setback". Like Horsefly I know of several of these that have had lots of 7.62 and .308 through them without problem. I've yet to see a Kimber converted one with bolt lug set back. I keep hearing about so and so says his buddy heard about one from some guy at a gunshow but would someone show me one? I have seen no recall of them from Kimber. I would think if "all" of them had lug set back we would have seen something more official that posts on internet forums.

 

In pre-internet "oh don't do it times" I picked up a Spanish M93 action made in '28 and put a .308 barrel on it. I shot thousands of M80 thrugh it plus a few boxes of factory .308 and thousands of my handloads. I was young and dumb back then and managed to blow a couple primers and most of my handloads were right up at max. After I shot that barrel out I put another .308 barrel on that action and proceded to shoot it out to. I've no lug set back and the action now has a 2 groove '03A3 barrel on it set back and chambered to a cast bullet cartridge of my design. The rifle is still going strong. I might add that it also has been converted to cock on opening which is another no-no I guess. Granted there are M93s and other milsurp actions along with numerous commercial actions that have been abused or are worn out that I wouldn't use. It is my impression from years of reading and research that Mauser designed his actions as strong as he could because of the rapid advances in cartridge capability. I would really like someone to prove to me that SR Mausers are "designed only for 45,000 psi". I do not advocate making magnums out of the SRs but I've found that given an action in good condition either the original cartridge may be loaded to potential or it may be rebarreled to a standard cartridge that fits the action and it may be loaded to it's potential (factory) capabilities.

 

Now about the M 96 (or M38) Swede; I've found it to be a very strong action. If you take a good look at it along side a M700 or M70 push feed action you won't see much difference in design. Not that I've tested it to it's limits but I have loaded it in 6.5 to equal the european loads and have, as mentioned earlier, seen several digest .308 Win with aplomb. I have used numerous M94, M96 and M38s over the years. I still have 3, a M38, a M96 and the M38 that I sporterized into a scout rifle. The scout (pictured) has been converted to cock on open, a single stage trigger added, D&T'd for regular scope bases, bolt forged, a scope base made for rear sight base and front sight made into a post and is pillar bedded into the glass stock. I use 3 loads; for big game the 140 Hornady SP at 2740 fps, for varmints the Sierra 100 HP at 3225 fps and for a general purpose the Sierra 120 SP or Nosler 120 BT at 2957 fps. All loads shoot sub moa. As to rebarreling the M96 to other than 6.5x55 I'm partial to the 6.5x57, the 257 Roberts, the 6mm Remington, a 30x57 (shortchambering usinga 30-06 reamer) and a 9x57 (short chambering using a .35 Whelen reamer). All are excellent cartridges of which the M96/38 is quite capable of handling.

 

Larry Gibson

 

post-2159-1178551236_thumb.jpg

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Larry: You talk my language!!!! Glad you are here!!

O.D. that piece is worth repeating... well done!!

Guess I don't have anything important to add!!!!! MV

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Most Ackley cartridges would probably fall into upper pressure ranges. As there are custom, you can load them any way you want.

 

Some exceptions would be the 30/30 AI, and other cartridges designed for the 94 Win.

 

With the 257 AI, you're basically getting a 25/06 in terms of powder capacity. For all the work, the 25/06 would be much cheaper and probably feed better. I wonder how the 25/06 feeds through an unmodified 96 magazine?

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I wonder how the 25/06 feeds through an unmodified 96 magazine?

The '06 family has always fed well in the m48 magazines that I have used... and the M48/24-47 bottom metal works on my M93's and 95's... don't know abt. 96's tho!!! So maybe I'm just blowin bull poop!!!! I would think that the AI family would be more challenging, but I base that on my experience w/ the 284 Win.... Yep more rambling!!! Sorry.. MV

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I was browsing this topic and remembered that the Swedes did rebarrel the M96 to 30.06 for their sporting market. I don't know what they had to do to the trigger guard to accept the length of the 30.06 round, but they did make it possible. Here's a link to browse, http://www.tradeexcanada.com/esquif2/index...table&gid=5

 

Hard to really tell from the pictures but clicking on them (those in '06 and 8x57) and looking closely I could not see the thumb cocking part on the rear of the striker. That leads me to believe these are really Swede M40s (M98s). Probably only hands on inspection would tell for sure. Wouldn't be the first time an action model was mislabeled.

 

Larry Gibson

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s4.jpg

s2.jpg

 

I asked a few questions, and got some answers. Stiga, a commercial sporting goods company in Sweden, took surplus M96 (model 38) actions and fitted them to a new barrel and sporter stock, usually it seems in 30.06. The quality of these rifles are good, though I have been unable to confirm whether the Stigas took unused or used surplus actions for the making of these rifles. Husqvarna sporters used fresh M38 recievers taken off the production line for military arms, or built commercial recievers that lacked the thumb cut on the left side of the reciever intended to aid loading with stripper clips.

 

A further consideration with the Stigas are scope compatability. The bent bolt on these rifles in their normal configuration does not allow mounting of a regular scope. Many Swedish rifles including the Stiga were equipped with a side mounting system, though most of these rifles come without the original mount and have just a few holes in the side of the reciever to show for it. Another option that was commonly utilized by Swedish hunters was to install an Aimpoint sight (manufactured in Sweden), as they do not extend behind the top of the reciever where they would come into contact with the bolt handle. Fortunately, many Stigas have had their bolt handles modified in which case they can be scoped. You might also want to confirm the type of safety that they use, as some come with the original mauser type safety that might interfere with a scope, while others might have a modified or side safety installed for this purpose.

 

The availability of Swedish firearms in North America stems from laws in Sweden that limits non-collectors from owning more than six longarms and ten pistols. Consequently, as the popularity of newer models and rifle calibres won the interest of Swedish hunters, many older bolt guns have become available for import. Asides from a common habit of marking stocks for every big game animal killed, and a tendency (among the Husqvarnas at least) to develop cracks in the tang of the stock, most of these rifles are in good shape. While the 6.5mm rifles have usually been shot a fair bit, rifles in the larger calibres (8mm, 9.3mm and 30.06) probably had no more than a box of ammo shot out of them each season they were used.

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Ringo338

 

Any idea what they did to lengthen the magazine as '06 is too long? Also shouldn't all these M96s have lug set back as do all the Kimbers? After all the '06 and the 8x57 operate at a much higher psi than the "only 45,000 psi" the M96 and otherSR Mausers were "designed" for, right? Obviously the Swedes know their rifles strength better than we apparently do!

 

Larry Gibson

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Gun nutty

 

Well that shop in Lassen is the only place I've heard of Kimber's returned with lug set back. I would still like to see one for myself as I've not seen any yet. I don't believe the .243 "runs hotter" than a .308 or the .22-250 that they also were rebarreled to. One or two that were over loaded (it does happen you know!) and may have set back are the exception but I've seen plenty of those on M98 actions. Had a new reloader bring a Huskvarna M98 in '06 to fix one time as he couldn't open the bolt. Said he'd bought a whole reloading set up at an estate sale. Loaded some 180 gr Speers up with 48 gr of "rifle" powder. I asked where he got that load and what rifle powder? He said his buddy at work who reloads said that's what they used in the military '06. Then he said Hercules Rrifle powder was on the can. I asked what the big numbers were on the can. He said 2400!!!! Yes the lugs wer severely set back along withthe reciever was bulged behind the receiver ring, a cracked stock, magazine bulged, extractor gone and the left lug cracked. I pulled the barrel and the chamber was ok. He further said I should probably look at his brother in laws rifle (same as his) as the bolt was stuck on it too. I found it in the same condition.

 

Larry Gibson

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Ringo338

 

Any idea what they did to lengthen the magazine as '06 is too long? Also shouldn't all these M96s have lug set back as do all the Kimbers? After all the '06 and the 8x57 operate at a much higher psi than the "only 45,000 psi" the M96 and otherSR Mausers were "designed" for, right? Obviously the Swedes know their rifles strength better than we apparently do!

 

Larry Gibson

 

I suspect they machined the magazine as '06 is too long in my Swedes. I also suspect they did a heat treatment on the receiver as I had heard about the Kimbers. I remember reading an article on a custom m96 Charlie Sisk built in .243win, it took less than a handful of test rounds to have lug set back. I would stick to the 45,000 psi rule for safety, there are obviously valid reasons.

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I suspect they machined the magazine as '06 is too long in my Swedes. I also suspect they did a heat treatment on the receiver as I had heard about the Kimbers. I remember reading an article on a custom m96 Charlie Sisk built in .243win, it took less than a handful of test rounds to have lug set back. I would stick to the 45,000 psi rule for safety, there are obviously valid reasons.

 

That's what's nice about this country, we still have choices. I hear of car wrecks every day but I still drive, people get mugged but I still go out, smoking can kill you but I still enjoy a good cigar now and then, etc. Apparently some ignore that many many M96s have been converted without problem. One set back does not mean it will happen to all. I have seen many such problems with M70s, M700s etc. Do we not use those because of problems with a few? As to re heat treating the actions; I'd bet a dollor to a donut that reheat treating would have prevented the set back in the Sisk custom .243. The reason is probably because he lapped the lugs which is not really a good thing to do to most any Mauser as the heat treatment is very thin. I lapping the luggs he got through the ardened part. I have seen that numerous times with all the different Mauser actions. I have seen several converted to 6mm Remington without any problems. Is the 6mm Remington that much different than the .243?

 

Larry Gibson

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I've already stated that the Swedes are fine Mausers. They are, in my mind, the best. I wish they still were $79.95 each; I wish my unaltered '96 wasn't all matching, with an outstanding bore, and shoots better with open sights at 100 yards than most of my scoped rifles (it sucks 'cause I'd love to put that butter smooth action under the knife and build a sporter rifle!).

 

I think one issue that Swede users are confronted with is, what is a "Swede"? Many of the early articles and work about the Swedes comes from the early '94 models and very early '96 models. There are also much later model '96s and fairly modern '38s. The rifle was made in three distinct models over a span of almost 50 years, by three manufacturers. I suspect the later models are damn near "commercial" in metalurgy and strength.

 

If I found a good price on a '96 that someone had converted to 30'06, 25'06, or .243, I probably about the safety of the conversion and do everything I could to get the price down, and walk away with the rifle and a big smile. I'd keep the rifle in the existing caliber (provided there was quality work performed), and not worry about it.

 

I also have a friend who overloaded a Swede with 4198 (grabbed wrong canister of powder). Big boom, rifle survived.

 

I must base my views of the Swede's strength on the experience of others (I only have one, and have no intention of modifying it). If someone says "this is my experience with this action", I'll listen. If someone says "be concerned about setback", I will. My 1908 '96 is almost a century old, and I will tread with an overabundance of caution when handling it.

 

I will also listen to "I think they are very strong and have never seen any setback". It's too bad Ackley never tested the Swedes or even small rings. I think it would have settled some issues. I don't think the pre-98 Mausers are inferior in any way and make excellent lightweight sporters; in addition, they were made for and handle the X57 based cartridges very well.

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