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bilurey

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  1. My favorite overall is the 7x57, wide range of powders and bullets, great record as a game getter and target round. I decided to stand back and decide on the basis of which round I least like being shot AT me. That would be the 8x57 with it's 198grn. FMJ, Spitzer nose and Boattail base. These things don't stablize well until the 400M mark and even then they may tumble, twist, or turn internally following the greatest impact of all cartridges mentioned. Many wartime bullets were designed to be just ballisticaly stable to travel in a straight line, but, lose that stability on impact. In WWI both Germans and British complained about the spitzer bullets which tumbled on impact, as opposed to the original round nose FMJs which sailed straight through minimizing damage. In WWII we learned that light weight Spitzer Boatails reduced time-to-target and recoil. However both the we and the Brits had serious intentions of using 7mm cartridges until war broke out with each of our sides having millions of our WWI cartridges in stock in a time of desprite need. The Germans designed the Zf41-1 "optical sighting aid" to increase the probability of a first round hit. However, both the Russians and Germans ended up with "mini" rounds of standard caliber in selective fire stamped rifles to gain Volume of Fire. Unlike earlier "static" (trench or fortified positions) tactics, the new "Dynamic" wars move on motorized vehicles and potential locations of enemy are simply hosed down. This is the current trend, and the .30 cal. light weight Spitzer Boat Tail bullets give good penetration under these situations. With 50 cal. support for penetrating heavy cover and all but Tanks (and special rocket launched inverted cone explosive heads for armored targets) many nations are going to full auto pistol cartridge small arms for the dreaded Urban fighting. On the other hand, I think the 7.65x54 is prehaps the best of the Mauser rounds for most hunting. After all, Winchester chambered the M70 for it and both Winchester and UMC sold SP hunting bullets for it. Almost all Mauser cartridges (military and hunting) are loaded with the heavist bullets posible - at modest velocities. This was not done by accident. Bill
  2. I would stay with a standard '98 Mauser action (Oberndorf,DWM,BRNO,STEYR-Gew98,M98,K98,Standard Model) for 3 simple reasons. First, unless you can do machine work yourself, the cost of rebarreling is goin to be expensive, especially because the Yugos are made with safety breech which wasn't really necessary at the time it was incorporated. Also it will require a whole separate rebarreling step once the normal rebarreling is done. This is required because the rear face of the reinforce ring is slotted on the right hand side to allow the head of the extractor to fit. This requires carefully marking the newly installed barrel's breech face to match the slot cut into the reinforing ring. Then the barrel must be removed, and carefully slotted to correspond to that cut, then reinstalled. This can get real expensive. Second, spare parts are dificult to find for Yugos, and consequently more expensive. Third, aftermarket parts (stocks, triggers, safeties,ect.) are far more limited than for standard '98 actions. The Yugo actions (if in good shape, not worn or rusted) are good actions but will require smoothing up to operate as well as standard '98s. Besides all major manufacturors produce .308 models on their standard length actions as it's cheaper to modify a magazine than a headspacing set-up. I bought a nice post-war M48 (original M24s and later rearsenaled 24/48s are difficult to find in decent shape) and have no intention of altering anything on mine. I'd suggest getting a good 'M98 and letting Z put one of his beautiful bolt handle jobs on it for you. I believe you will be extremely pleased. Bill
  3. You might wish to leave it as is, the 7.65 is a great cartridge. It falls between the .308 and the 30-06. In good M98 actions in can be loaded hotter than standard (which is based on the M91 action). At one time Norma had some really hot 150grn. loads on the market but they disapeared, prehaps problems in M91 actions. I have original boxed 7.65 ammo mfg. by Winchester and UMC, it's FMJ but both companies also loaded SP versions and Winchester chambered the model 54 and the model 70 for this cartridge. It was this cartridge and the 1889 Mauser for which FN was established, and the 1889 Mauser was the only Mauser ever built in America. Barnes, "Cartridges of the World" gives some good data on it, but Ken Waters "Pet Loads" has the best info. Better loads than the 7.62x51 NATO with better velocity and less pressure. The last project I planned was a 7.65 lightweight on a Euro classic stock, but bad health cut that short. You can tell when you're getting old when the guys you get togather with on Wednesday night are doctors and lawyers examining your health, DNR, and Living Will. But denial really ends when you look in the mirror and see a blue eyed, white rasin, and your look down and see white pubic hair. I guess the final insult is when viewing phorno you reaction is that it looks really messy. Bill
  4. I think the simplest test would be to remove the handguard and look for original German proof marks on the barrel shank and 7.65 stamped on the top dead center of the barrel reinforce, where it enters the action. This would indicate a rechambered barrel with the original bore which ought to give miserable accuracy, as happened when the NRA tested an Argie '09 rechambered to 30-06. I believe the 1909 is an intermediate action and Turk M1903 bolts may be fitted if necessary. Nice rifles, although most I've seen or worn, or rusted, beyond recognition. I rebarreled one to 30-06, set it into a Browning Safari stock then sold it a fellow who really wanted it. Been there myself, but it gave me money to start over on another and thats the game - right? Bill
  5. Regarding triggers, I could use some help (my wife frequently reminds me of this). I decided to try a Bold Premium Optima as the safety can be applied whether cocked or uncocked and the bolt can still be functioned. Most safeties lock the bolt which requires emptying a charged magazine by running live ammo thru a cycle with the safety off. I have a few FN magazine TG assemblies and decided to fit the Bold to a receiver using one of these. I was surprised to find that the body of the bold hung down so far that it entered the milled well where the trigger passes thru the magazine rear tang and, was too wide to fit. Without the safety plate and it's rivet the fit was fine, but the Premium model's plate and rivet were far to wide to fit into the milled cut. Is it a necessary procedure when mounting a Bold Premium Optima trigger in a '98 action? I tried it for fit using: Czech; Oberndorf; DWM; and, Steyr '98 magazine TG assemblies getting the same porblem prior to altering the FN unit. Finally I cut a section out of the rear mag tang on its right side to permit the bottom of the trigger unit to fit vertically and have room to function. It works well but I really hate to cut up FN commerical parts. The safety lever did however slide beneath the bolt shroud as it is a streamlined shroud and it's gas shield is much narrower the that of the military M98. Thanks, Bill. P.S. In my earlier, original response about safeties I posted my response prior to proofreading it. Tried to EDIT it and got a total of 3 almost identical posts. Apolpgies, how do you delete a response after it's posted? Prehaps my wife is right -again. Bill
  6. When the Yugos chose FN to set up a national M98 system rifle they selected two peculiar features. First, an intermediate length action with pre-98 action screw spacing. This may have been to minimize retooling of jigs and fixtures used for existing M1995 Mannlichter manufacture. Second, a "Safety Breech" which moves the rear face of the barrel into the hole in the Reinforcing Ring inside the front reveiver ring such that the face of the bolt and the rear face of the barrel almost touch - gives maximum enclosure of the base of the cartridge case in case of a case head separtation. This evolved from problems with early smokeless powder when deterent coatings would not adhere securely to the flakes. This resulted in rifle size powder loads turning into Bullseye pistol powder which in turn converted should held long guns into shoulder held hand grenades. Yet this problem had been resolved 20 years earlier when Centralite proved to be a successful deterent coating. In addition, the Safety Breeching requires first machining the barrel to proper headspace then removing it to cut a groove in the right face of the breech to allow room for the extractor which extends beyong the face of the bolt. Then, reinstalling the barrel. Rebarreling a Yugo 24 series action can be a very expensive proposition. Considering the relative scarcity of spare parts for for Yugo 24 variations, the extra expense to rebarrel, and the limited variety of aftermarket stocks it's generally better to use them as-is - which is plenty good to begin with. Bill.
  7. When the Yugos chose FN to set up a national M98 system rifle they selected to peculiar features. First, an intermediated length action with pre-98 action screw spacing. This may have been to minimize retooling of jigs and fixtures used for M1995 Mannlichters. Second, a "Safety Breech" which moves the rear face of the barrel into the hole in the Reinforcing Ring inside the front reveiver ring such that the face of the bolt and the rear face of the barrel almost touch - gives maximum enclosure of the base of the cartridge case in case of a case head separtation. This evolved from problems with early smokeless powder when deterent coatings would not adhere securely to the flakes. This resulted in rifle size powder loads turning into Bullseye pistol powder which in turn converted should held long guns into shoulder held hand grenades. Yet this problem had been resolved 20 years earlier when Centralite proved to be a successful deterent coating. In addition, the Safety Breeching requires first machining the barrel to proper headspace then removing it to cut a groove in the right face of the breech to allow room for the extractor which extends beyong the face of the bolt. Then, reinstalling the barrel. Rebarreling a Yugo 24 series action can be a very expensive proposition. Considering the relative scarcity of spare parts for for Yugo 24 variations, the extra expense to rebarrel, and the limited variety of aftermarket stocks it's generally better to use them as-is - which is plenty good to begin with. Bill.
  8. When the Yugos chose FN to set up a national M98 system rifle they selected two peculiar features. First, an intermediate length action with pre-98 action screw spacing. This may have been done to minimize retooling of jigs and fixtures used in existing M1895 Mannlichter manufacture. Second, a "Safety Breech" which moves the rear face of the barrel into the hole in the Reinforcing Ring inside the front reveiver ring such that the face of the bolt and the rear face of the barrel almost touch - gives maximum enclosure of the base of the cartridge case in case of a case head separtation. This evolved from problems with early smokeless powder when deterent coatings would not adhere securely to the flakes. This resulted in rifle size powder loads turning into Bullseye pistol powder which in turn converted should held long guns into shoulder held hand grenades. Yet this problem had been resolved 20 years earlier when Centralite proved to be a successful deterent coating. In addition, the Safety Breeching requires first machining the barrel to proper headspace then removing it to machine a groove in the right face of the breech to allow room for the extractor which extends beyong the face of the bolt. Then, reinstalling the barrel. Rebarreling a Yugo 24 series action can be a very expensive proposition. Considering the relative scarcity of spare parts for Yugo 24 variations, the extra expense to rebarrel, and the limited variety of aftermarket stocks it's generally better to use them as-is - which is plenty good to begin with. Bill.
  9. Some Argie 1909s were sold by disreputable distributors after running a 30-06 reamer into the chamber, then selling them as 30-0s. The FTC to Monkey Wards to court over this. Most of the conversions were done following WWII when the U.S. wanted to to take up the political influence which the Germans developed going back to the 1890s by supplying Mausers rifles in 7mm, 7.65mm and 8mm to S. America. Some 7mm barrels were rebored, but, 7.65mm and 8mm barrels were replaced with recontured '03/'03-A3 Sprngfld surpluss barrels. In the 1960s many of these recontured barrels had the breech shortened then rechambered to 7.62 NATO. Numrich has (or had) some .308 barrels made from '03 30-06 barrels. These have the groove for the '03 rear sight jamb pin extending back into the action due to cutting off the shank of the original '03 barrel to rechamber them to .308. For the most part new barrels were ordered, orignal caliber markings on the receiver were ground and ".30" (Brazil, Chile, Columbia, Peru,ect.) or, "7.62" (Isreal,ect.) was stamped on the receiver and/or stock. Many of the original 7.65mm rifles had previously been converted to 8x57mm by lengthing the magazine box and cutting a vertical groove in the rear face of the front receiver ring to permit the use of charging the magazines with these longer cartridges (Turk Mausers, ect.). FN sold .308 barrels and complete rifles to Isreal. Century Arms imported many Gew98s, rebarreling them to 30-06 and selling them directly to the great unwashed body of the public. A great time was had by all. Bill.
  10. The PH trigger shown requires a special cocking piece which has a flat, uncut, bottom on it's foot. This lack of a cut holds down the sear after firing and during the initial opening stroke. These cocking pieces are very difficult to find, and very expensive when available. I fit a piece of scrap into the cut-out in the bottom of the foot of a standard M98 cocking piece, as an alternative to holding the trigger completely to the rear when recocking the bolt after firing, which is a real pain. Also, glass bedding is very tricky in the rear tang when using this trigger. The older Timney's worked very well, although the Kar98a requires a special unit due to the trigger being mounted closer to the magazine. The old, Dayton Traistor all-steel triggers are hard to beat but may be difficult to find. These may only require inletting at the ends as they are very narrow. The Canjar works well and has been a favorite of target shooters for decades. The Bold Premium and Optium side-safeties work well on M98s and K98s, but, don't mistakenly get the small ring Mauser model as the small ring models are of different dimensions. I have a Gew98 I had put togather by a master gunsmith using an '03 Sprngfld barrel in 1957 for my father. It is the smoothest and easiest Mauser action I've ever had and uses the original 98 trigger assembly. These need to be altered to remove "over travel" in order to make good target triggers, but I have come to really like the double pull. Never had a "pulled" shot due to a nervous twitch during concentration on targets or game. FN's "single stage" commercial triggers are fine but need work lightening and smoothing them out. Watch out for the M70 type FN single stage triggers which are pinned to the trigger guard. These should be avoided altogather as the trigger and the sear are attached to different parts of the action - too much room for shifting around. Double Set triggers hold a certain fascination for many, but, can be really dangerous to unpracticed users. I showed a friend how to use them one day at the range. As he brought it up to his should he set the rear trigger, I started yelling STOP but he kept going, moving his finger to the front trigger and sure enough he touched it off prior to getting it seated securely on his shoulder. His head became the recoil seat for the scope's rear bell housing, it punched out a semi-circle of bone in the upper portion of his eye socket. An older doctor laughed and said they didn't see many of these injuries anymore as set triggers had gone out of fashion, fortunately my friend recoverd with no permanent vision problems. I'd reccomend sticking with steel and very simple designs like the Buehler, FN, Dayton-Traistor, or Lee shroud safties which block the firing pin. For side safties, Timney, Bold, or Canjar. When ordering the Bold or Timney side-safety triggers ensure you specify "98" or "FN". The 98 bolt shroud is much wider than the streamlined bold shrouds on commercial actions. Early FNs used the older M98 bolt shroud and will need the "98" trigger. The "FN" safety button will stick up higher above the stock line and block movement of the bolt when it's shroud jams up against it. A small portion of the lower right corner of a M98 type bolt shroud can be ground away to avoid this problem. Bill.
  11. bilurey

    Brazil Bolts

    The bolts you saw, "unnumbered, never used"? Federal Arms bought a bunch of S. American M98 bolts, polished them up nicely and sold them at pretty reasonable prices. Since then one or two devils have been advertizing them as "new, old stock items (NOS), not true. Could I suggest buying a stripped bolt body first, checking the headspace and then buy milsurp parts to complete it. How many impropperly headspaced bolts would you want to go through at $90 each? Parts dealers will not continously replace complete (or stripped) bolt bodies which don't headspace in your particular rifle. Some German, Czech, and Austrian pre-1944 barreled receivers may match up with bolts made by these same manufacturers as machining tolerances were pretty close. Millions of M98 Mauser Systems rifles were built by these companies, huge numbers of them for S.American countries, China, Turkey, Spain, and Ethopia as well as many other smaller countries. Might be a good idea to stick with receivers made by the same companies also. However, never expect a drop-in part to be acceptable, even if it appears to function properly. Have it checked out by a competent person. Bill
  12. Several good tips presented above on creating a Mannlicher rifle: Excelent specific instructions on fitting the nose cap and letting it determine the stock thickness back to the receiver. Great advice on the non-straight-line underside of the fore end, rather a very shallow, radiused, concave curve with the peak of the curve about 60% from the receiver and then straight-line to muzzle. Try to see an MS factory rifle. The forward sling swivel cannot be secured to the stock, wood is far too thin. The traditional method is a transverse screw thru a lug beneath a barrel band. This may be the best method (See Z's example). Sights: Military sight are the fastest method of dealing with quick adjustments for elevation changes, but, are very clunky looking. Shorter carbine type milsurp sights are better. If not acceptable, remove complete rear sight, disassemble, revolve base then replace it upside down leaving a solid sleeve (earlier sight bases do not have center milled out). This preserves the existing barrel inletting for the milsurp sight base. Scopes are best as they put all 3 sighting elements in one dimension. Low magnification is best as it permits a wider field of view, particularly at short range when most shots are made (a deer trotting at 7mph will move completely out of the field of view in a scope set at 9x in one step. But, if a top mounted scope is used, front and rear backup iron sights will have to be higher than military sights to be seen above the tops of the receiver mounted scope bases remaining, if the scope must be removed. Peep sights are closer to the eye, give at least 10ins. greater sighting base, eliminate focusing on the rear sight, and do not cover up the target with notched rear sight leaf (which is why open iron sights cause shoother to shoot high trying to lift the front sight higher to see the target more clearly). Peep sights can have their elevation arm marked to indicate specific ranges for quick changes. Open Iron sights are a no-think habit born of tradition and require the greatest skill and concentration for effective use, also the least expensive sight for the manufacturers to add. Many of todays rifles have no iron sights (cost effectiveness at work), maybe you've have never had a scope get broken or disabled - yet, besides, all of this will become clearer as your vision loses it sharp edge - and it will. Among history's great creative painters, arcitechs, sculptors, and writers, whose work is carefully preserved in museums down through the ages, is the work of gunmakers- also artists. For most of us our great contribution will be our children. But this is not artistry, rather persuasion and reproduction. But on this forum we have at least 3 men whose work is artistic as well as functional. Even if we simply copy their work we can create items which may be charished by untold future generations of our offspring. I'm not an artist, but I'm getting better at copying gun art and it makes me happy as hell. Bill.
  13. Over 50+ years I discovered that far too much insistance is placed upon perfect bores and muzzle crowns. I tried to buy at least one of every bolt action military rifles I could find in the reference books, clean them up and shoot them with original milsurp ammo and then carefully made handloads. I discovered that bores can be shot clean (as described above) and even sewer pipes will shoot with acceptable accuracy (3.5 ins. at 100 yrds.) as long as lands are present and the bore is not worn oval from poor cleaning techniques. I had an early low number '03 Springfield and an 1895 Win. Russian (the most beat up rifle I ever owned), both with sewer pipe bores even after shooting them clean. The Springfield was incrediblely accurate if I used 220 grn. round nose bullets and the Russian shot milsurp ammo into 4 in. groups. The NRA ran a test using an unissued "03-A3 in which the face of the muzzle was beveled off at increasing angles of about 5 degrees until dispersion became completely unacceptable. I was amazed at how much that muzzle was beveled before anything really significant happened. My point is that consistant shooting techniques are far more importhant thant perfect bores or muzzles. I came to feelthat thousands of perfectly acceptable milsurps were unnecessarily rebarreled because of less than perfect bores, or, shooters lack of knowledge about the original chamberings. 6.5, 7, and 8mm cartridges used in foreign rifles equal or exceed most of the common small to medium American cartridges, and until the past 15 years the softpoint projectiles of these cartridges were superior to most American hunting projectiles. My father told me I'd never learn much about women by staring at them. So, shoot an Elk with a civil war Springfield or Enfield, prehaps even a more modern 45-70-500. Try using an unaltered milsurp for deer hunting, the deer won't shoot back like the soldiers who originally used then. What a wonderful life of shooting I've had in spite of some of the nimrods I was surrounded by, touting their Son Of Sampson 30 cal. cannons which they hadn't shot enough to be able to hit much more than brush. I remember one fellow telling me, "Ya I missed, but look at what it did to the tree it hit". Well, it's time for me to get back to sporterizing that newest Mauser I just got, see you later. Bilurey
  14. Prior to WWl, the Austro-Hungarian Empire controlled a number of slavic/Baltic countries successfully using the "Iron Fist" approch. Following WWI this empire was dissolved and about a zillion neighborhoods became independent countries and immediatly began killing eachother. During WWII Tito began to draw togather Serbia, Croatia, and Boznia (sound familiar?) into a unified country - Yugoslavia. He snuggled up to Russia as a satalite state member of the USSR to gain Soviet influence to support this unification. So, in 1924 FN was approched by the then independent neighborhood city-state of Serbia (they engineered the assignation of the King of Austria which resulted in WWI) to build a national armory. FN set up the whole operation for manufacturing an early version of the Oberndorf M1898 which had an almost completely sealed breech to prevent case head separations and blown-up rifles. Few parts are interchangable with the standard M98, and, rebarreling in a very involved process, adding considerably to the costs (also true for sporterizing). Very few of the seal breech version were sold as smokless powder and brass technology were greatly improved by 1920. There is no difference in stamping or marking to distinguish between early FN or Serbian manufacture. This is the Serbian Model 1924, sometimes refered to as the Yugo M24. These rifles were refurbed in 1948 and then became M24/48s, leaving an opening for the "Who Cares" milsurp distributors who were also selling "Turk M38s" with the same degree of concern for historical accuracy. In addition, this arsenal began producing commercial M98 Mausers which were sold as the "MarkX" brand. To further complicate the issue, the arsenal also began new production of the original M1924 (M24) with a bent down bolt and a few other changes with 3 variations in receiver stampings. Also, the refurbing of early pre WWII Czech Vz24s as M24/56(?) and Russian captured K98s. Manufacture of military M48s continued thru the Bosnian War. Marstar of Canada had a fairly complete and concise list of models at one time. The U.S. finally destroyed this arsenal, when the Serbs refused to conform to the cease fire agreements of the Bosnian War, the last business manufacturing M98 commercial rifles was gone. It's difficult to remember all the models and designations without a pile of reflerence books, especially since all this info must then pass thru the Swiss Cheeze brain of a blank-eyed man of my age. Apologies for any sins of omission or commission in this info. Bill
  15. If it's a Yugo M24 the crest on the top of the front receiver ring will have the word "Monan" beneath it and M24 or model 24 someplace on the sidewall or front receiver. Early model 24s were manufactured by, or on, FN machinery as FN set up production of this model for the Yugos. Almost all of these rifles were rerurbished following WWII and are M24/48s to distinguishe them from new 1948 production. The Yugos also refurbed K98s and Vz24s, removing original manufactures crests. If an original early M24, refurbed M24/48, new production M48, M48A, or M48 without a crest, then it will be an intermediate action and use a shorter magazine trigger guard assembly than standard. The bolt will be missing the continuation of the front of the left locking lug, which extends it beyond the face of the bolt and acts as an extracted cartridge guide. These bolts are also shorter than standard. Check out the above info and let us know, one of us can probably identify it and this gives us something to chew our cud about. I told a friend that talking about guns is the next best thing to shooting them, he said the same was true about sex. Bill
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