13 Gn Of Red Dot...the Load..

[karlunity]

I have been using this since the 90's. Worth reading

"The Load" is 13 Grains of Red Dot"

My success in economizing by using up leftover shotshell powder has changed my approach to handloading. I had a caddy of Red Dot, and no longer reloaded shotshells, so asked myself, "what can I do with it?" My shooting is now mostly high-power rifle. I needed several hundred rounds a week to practice offhand, reloading, and working the bolt in sitting and prone rapid, but didn't want to burn out my barrel or my wallet. Powder used to be cheap, but today is $20/lb. (or more), so cost is a factor in component choice.
I used to ignore pistol or shotgun powders in reduced rifle loads for the usual reasons: the risk of accidental double-charges, fears of erratic ignition, and concerns with maintaining accuracy, and reduced utility with a low-power load.
Still, the caddy of Red Dot kept "looking at me" from the corner. Would it work? Looking at data in the RCBS Cast Bullet Manual No. 1 and the Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook suggested it would, so I tried it, much to my delight! Red Dot is bulky, compared to the usual rifle powders used in .30-'06-size cases. It occupies more powder space in typical charges than common "reduced load" rifle powders, such as #2400, IMR4227, IMR4198 or RL-7. The lower bulk density of Red Dot adequately addresses my safety concerns because it makes an accidental double charge far less likely.
After considerable experimentation, my friends and I found "The Load" IS 13 grains of Hercules Red Dot, in any FULL SIZED rifle case of .30 cal. or larger."The Load" has distinct advantages over more expensive alternatives, within certain limitations, which are:
1. The case must be LARGER than the .300 Savage or .35 Remington.
2. The rifle must be of MODERN (post 1898) design, suitable for smokeless powder, with a bore size of .30 cal. or larger.
3. The bullet weight must be within the NORMAL range for the given cartridge.
4. Inert fillers such as Dacron, kapok or are NOT RECOMMENDED! (Nor are they necessary).
Within these restrictions I have now engraved in stone, "The Load" works!
The bullet may be either jacketed or cast. Gaschecked cast bullets required in the .30 cals., otherwise you will get leading, but plainbased ones work fine in the 8mm Mauser or larger.
"The Load" has shown complete success in the .30-40 Krag, .303 British, 7.65 Argentine, .308 Win., 7.62x54R Russian, .30-'06, 8x57 and .45-70 (strong-actioned rifles such as the 1886 Winchester or 1895 Marlin -- 12 grs. is maximum for 400 gr. bullets in the Trapdoor Springfield -- Ed.) Though I have not tried it, I have no doubt that "The Load" would work well in other cartridges fitting these parameters, such as the .35 Whelen, .358 Winchester, .375 H&H or .444 Marlin, based on RCBS and Lyman published data.
"The Load" fills 50% or more of a .308 Win or .30-'06 case. The risk of an accidental double charge is greatly reduced, because the blunder is immediately obvious if you visually check, powder fill on EVERY CASE, as you should whenever handloading! A bulky powder measures more uniformly, because normal variation in the measured volume represents a smaller percentage of the charge
weight.
Red Dot's granulation is somewhat less coarse than other flake powders of similar burning rate, such as 700-X, which aids metering. Its porous, uncoated flakes are easily ignited with standard primers. So-called "magnum" primers do no harm in cases larger than the .30-'06, but are neither necessary nor recommended in smaller ones. I DO NOT recommend pistol primers in reduced rifle loads, because weak primers may cause erratic ignition, and their thinner cups can perforate more easily, causing gas leakage and risk of personal injury!
The velocities obtained with 13 grs. of Red Dot appear mild, but "The Load" is no pipsqueak! In a case like the .308 or .30-'06, you get (from a 24" sporter
barrel) about 1450 f.p.s. with a 200- gr. cast bullet, 1500 with a 170-gr., or 1600 with a 150-gr. cast load. "The Load" is fully comparable to "yesterday's deer rifle", the .32-40, and provides good expansion of cheap, soft alloys (10-13 BHN) at woods ranges.
Jacketed bullet velocities with "The Load" are about 120-150 f.p.s. less than a lubricated lead bullet of the same weight.
Regards, Ed


From : Ed Harris 1:109/120.3006 12 Mar 94

Longer-barreled military rifles pick up a few feet per second, but "The Load" starts to slow down in barrels over 28", such as the M91 Moisin-Nagant and long Krags or 98a Mausers.
My preferred alloy in the .30 cals. is a mixture of 3-5 lbs. of .22 backstop scrap to 1 lb. of salvaged linotype. Wheelweights also work well, as do soft "Scheutzen" alloys such as 1:25 tin/lead. in bores of 8 mm or larger. "The Load" drives soft- cast .30-cal. to 8 mm bullets fast enough to get expansion,but without fragmenting. These out-penetrate factory .30-30 softpoints, and kill medium game up to 150 lbs. well at short ranges up to 100 yards, when placed accurately. In medium and large bores like the .375 H&H or .45-70, "The Load" gives typical black powder ballistics for the bore. A 255-265 gr. cast bullet in the .375 H&H approximates the .38-55 at 1330 f.p.s. Soft 300- 405-gr. cast bullets are pushed at 1300-1350 f.p.s. from a 22" barrel .45-70, sporter are very effective on deer at woods ranges. Cast bullets over .35 cal. do not have to expand appreciably to work well on game if blunt and heavy for their caliber.
The Load" works well with jacketed bullets, giving somewhat lower velocities than with cast lead, due to less effective obturation and greater friction in the bore. The 85-gr. or 100-gr. Hornady or 90-gr. Sierra JHP for the .32 H&R Mag. revolver, or the Remington 100-gr. .32-20 softpoint bullet become mild, but destructive varmint loads at 1600 f.p.s. from a .308 or '06.
If you substitute a stiffly jacketed 110-gr. .30 Carbine softpoint bullet, designed for higher velocities than imparted by "The Load", you have a
non-destructive "coup de gras", small game or wild turkey load which shoots close to your deer rifle's normal zero, but at 25 yards! A more accurate and effective small game or varmint load uses a flat-nosed 150-gr. pr 170-gr. 30-30 bullet instead. These don't expand at the 1400-1450 f.p.s. obtained with "The Load", but their larger frontal area improves killing power compared to roundnoses or spitzers.
I have use pulled GI .30 caliber Ball, and Match bullets with "The Load" for cheap 200-yd. NMC boltgun practice. Accuracy is equal to arsenal loads, but I use my 600-yard sight dope at 200 yards. I expect 5-6" ten-shot, iron-sight groups at 200 yards using M2 or M80 pulled bullets and about 3-4" for the M72 or M118 Match bullets. I use these mostly in bolt-action rifles, but they can be single-loaded for offhand or slow-fire practice in the Garand as well.
These .30 cal. pulls shoot fine in the .303 British or 7.62x54 Russian, despite their being a bit small, because the fast-burning Red Dot upsets them into the deeper grooves. The 173-gr. Match .30 cal. boattail bullets may not shoot as well at these low velocities as lighter flat bases in the 12" twist .308 Win. barrels, but they do quite well in ten- inch twist barrels such as in the '06, 7.62 Russian, .303 British and 7.65 Argentine.
The longer bore time of these 1400 f.p.s. (typical 170-180-gr. jacketed load velocity) practice loads makes errors in follow- through apparent, a great practice and training aid. The light recoil and lower report of these loads helps transition Junior tyro shooters from the .22 rimfire to the service rifle without being intimidated by the noise and recoil.
Zeroing is no problem in the M1 or M14, because "The Load" shoots into the ten-ring of the reduced SR target at 200 yards from your M1 or M14 rifle at using your normal 600 yard sight dope! The somewhat greater wind deflection blows you into the "8" ring at 200 yards with the same conditions you would expect to do so at 600 yards with M118 Match ammunition. This provides your Junior shooters some useful wind-doping practice.
The economy of a lighter charge is obvious. A full power .30-'06 load using 50 grs. of an IMR powder like 4064 costs 10 cents a pop, just for powder, at 140 rounds per pound (if you are lucky enough to find new powder for $14/lb.). Substituting 13 grs. of Red Dot gets 538 rounds per pound at a cost of 2.6
cents which is a savings of over $7 per hundred rounds in powder alone! Greater savings are possible if you get the best price and buy powder by the caddy.
Velocity and point of impact of "The Load" is not noticeably affected by varying powder position in the case. I shoot them either slow fire, or clip-fed and flipped through rapid-fire in the boltgun with equal accuracy. Red Dot is very clean burning and is economical both on the basis of its lower charge weight, and its lower basic cost per pound compared to other "rifle" powders.
Best of all, using a shotshell powder I already have reduces the kinds of powder I keep and eliminates the need for a special "reduced load" powder. This approach is ideal for rifle shooters who are also shotgunners, since almost everybody who reloads for 12-ga. probably has a keg of Red Dot already!
I now realize it is foolish to use heavier charges of more expensive powder for routine practice, varmint or small game loads in my center-fire rifles. I seldom shoot at over 200 yards, and don't enjoy wearing out expensive target barrels unnecessarily. Since I already have good sight dope and need to work more on technique and save my remaining barrel accuracy life for matches.
I am glad I found the way to get alot more shooting for the dollar. Economical powder choice IS possible, and my reloading has become less complicated and more enjoyable simple since I realized I could do most of my rifle shooting with 13 grains of Red Dot!
In Home Mix We Trust, Regards, Ed

[AzRednek]

Years ago I shot reduced loads in 06 and 30/30. I don't believe I used Red Dot. Best I recall it was Unique, Herco and 2400. Great way to do low cost shooting. I'm with you on the use of fillers, tried it once with oatmeal and had zero improvement. I used to tap the loaded cartridges before loading. Assuring there was powder near the primer. I don't recall ever using gas checked lead. I kept the loads mild and don't recall any leading. A shooting bud insisted his 7MM Mauser only used gas checked lead slugs but ran them a bit faster faster than recomended. I used to have a 1950's manual on reduced loads but presume I lost it in a house fire as I haven't seen it in years. Best I recall it was published by a manufacture of bullet molds but just can't remember whom it was.

 

I never did very well with my 30/30. Discovered later after reading a gun rag article. Marlin's Micro-groove barrels doesn't do well with lead slugs. I used to raise the ladder on my 03 and lob them into the bullseye bench rested at 100 yards. I learned real quick how much wind effects the slow moving slugs. Friend of mine claimed he could often see the slow bullets traveling through the air after spray painting them bright red. Never saw it or tried myself it but once I did see a 45 shooter's bullets in the air. He told me he used a red plastic stick-on, on the bullet's base. He was shooting late in the afternoon with the sun to his back.

 

I recall using a pistol powder with store-bought lead intended for 32 S&W Long in a M-1 Carbine. It was a dismal failure. Not enough ooomph to cycle the action and it printed what could have easily been mistaken as a shotgun pattern. It was 30+ years ago, I think it was 50 yards.

[AzRednek]

I've heard and read on the net and also in gun rags. Red Dot in 45ACP shot in a 1911 supposed to be very accurate combination. I've seen some posts on the Cast Boolit board swearing by Red Dot for 38 Special.

[karlunity]

I use HS 6 in the M1 carbine bolt cycles and the groups are good out to 250 meters.

If you need it I will look up the charge..as i am getting old and careful I dont post a charge from memory any more.

karl

[Dr.Hess]

My powder coated 30-30's were a great success. 200 GR Lee boolit from a mold made for 300BO, then powder coated using the "tumble" method and HF red powder coat. Size after that, no gas check. I put that in front of like 23 Gr (don't quote me, I'd have to look at it) of ancient 4198 from the '70's that I had laying around and at 50 yards (my back yard range) they shot fantastic. Thump pretty hard too.

[AzRednek]

My powder coated 30-30's were a great success. 200 GR Lee boolit from a mold made for 300BO, then powder coated using the "tumble" method and HF red powder coat. Size after that, no gas check. I put that in front of like 23 Gr (don't quote me, I'd have to look at it) of ancient 4198 from the '70's that I had laying around and at 50 yards (my back yard range) they shot fantastic. Thump pretty hard too.

 

Doc were you shooting the lead 30/30's in a Marlin?? According to some posts I've read on the Boolit board. Claimed success with Mico-Groove barrels with the Ranch Dog series of molds rolled in Lee goo. I recall one poster claiming he downed a deer with it. Best I recall, I was launching a Lee 150gr flat tip home cast from straight clip-on wheel weights. If my memory is up to par, I think the slug had a gas check base but I shot them bare assed. I do recall for sure using IMR-3031 and Winchester 748 in 30/30.

 

Karl said:

I use HS 6 in the M1 carbine bolt cycles and the groups are good out to 250 meters.

If you need it I will look up the charge..as i am getting old and careful I dont post a charge from memory any more.

karl

 

I had great success using 2400 in a M-1 Carbine shooting 110gr jacketed bullets. Wish I could remember the powder. It was specifically developed during WW2 for use in the M-1 Carbine and is/was available in the 80's. My gut is telling me it was a Hercules powder, maybe H-110. Many of the tried and true powders of yesteryear are becoming scarce as the manufactures try to steer reloaders to the newer lawyer resistant powders.

[Dr.Hess]

They were straight wheel weights, water drop cast, then powder coated. Looked like lipstick. I shot them in a Winchester 94 carbine. I experimented with putting gas checks on or leaving them off. Leaving them off, they shot better than I could at 50 off my portable bench with iron sights. With the gas checks on, the groups opened up. It was a pretty stout load of IMR4198. I have had that can of powder since the mid 70's. It didn't meter for nothing in a Dillon, so I stopped using it and just let it sit. With these, I measured each charge just to use it up. Don't know the velocities off hand, but I think it is a full power jacketed bullet load for 30-30, and with the powder coating and no gas checks, I had zero leading issues.

[AzRednek]

I use HS 6 in the M1 carbine bolt cycles and the groups are good out to 250 meters.

If you need it I will look up the charge..as i am getting old and careful I dont post a charge from memory any more.

karl

 

HS-6 is also an excellent pistol and shot shell powder. You're like me Karl!! I just don't trust my memory anymore.

[karlunity]

Found an outdoor rangde that I am going to next week it is a bit of a trip but you can use BP and reloads,

I am going to try some red dot in the 45 and will report back.

As I recall Az i think H 110 was the preferred for the M1 carbine but I had a can of HS6 and it worked...

karl

[AzRednek]

Found an outdoor rangde that I am going to next week it is a bit of a trip but you can use BP and reloads,

I am going to try some red dot in the 45 and will report back.

As I recall Az i think H 110 was the preferred for the M1 carbine but I had a can of HS6 and it worked...

karl

 

I looked but couldn't find it, believe I read it in an older Speer manual about H-110. I have Speer #'s 9 and 10 right on the shelf but my older manuals are currently buried. If you come across or have an older pre-Alliant Hercules manual probably find some useful info on Red Dot and 45ACP.

 

Bullseye my favorite for 45ACP was developed way back when for the US Military 45ACP. I'm a bit more trusting of my memory on the 45. It was 5.0 with the 230 gr jacketed slug. According to what I read years ago originally it was 5.5 but reduced to 5.0 by WW1. I've always used 4.0 and occasionally 4.5 shooting lead with Bullseye. Leaves me bit of a margin when using a powder measure vs a scale. For my 45ACP revolver, 4.0 with 185-200 gr lead slugs is remarkably accurate. Have to be careful with Bullseye and it probably also applies to Red Dot. When using a measurer, a double or maybe even a triple load wont spill over.

 

Back in the 70's still going through the learning curve. I mixed up the colored Dots and my 45 shot squibs. Can't remember exactly but I believe I used either green or blue and likely used red data or possible visa-versa. I shied away from the Dot powders since.

 

A now deceased shooting bud with legal M-2 Carbine and Enforcer pistol swore by Dupont's 4227. He belonged to a private club and range for MG shooters. He claimed it was the consensus of the members with full auto carbines on 4227. It may have been the favorite just because they used to do group buys and buy components in large quantities. As a side note after my friend died, his son inherited the collection which also included a Greasegun. Lost the entire collection along with some very nice antique Winchesters and Colt revolvers due to a drug bust.

[Dr.Hess]

This is what I have, use at you're own risk, etc:

 

Cartridge BulletWtinGn Bullet Powder Grains Velocity Pressure LoadSource
45 ACP 155 CAST: 155 Cast Lead Green Dot 6.6 1165 19300 Alliant
45 ACP 155 155 Cast Lead Green Dot 6.6 1165 19300 Alliant
45 ACP 180 180 LWC Green Dot 5.3 910 14500 Alliant
45 ACP 185 185 JHP Green Dot 6.8 990 19300 Alliant
45 ACP 200 200 JHP Green Dot 5.9 915 18900 Alliant
45 ACP 200 200 LSW (Target) Green Dot 4.3 805 Alliant
45 ACP 230 230 FMC Green Dot 5.4 920 15800 Alliant
45 ACP 230 230 JHP Green Dot 5.4 845 19500 Alliant
45 ACP 230 230 L (Target) Green Dot 4.3 805 13200 Alliant
45 ACP 240 240 JHP Green Dot 5 790 19300 Alliant
45 ACP 155 155 Cast Lead Red Dot 5.8 1155 18800 Alliant
45 ACP 155 CAST: 155 Cast Lead Red Dot 5.8 1155 18800 Alliant
45 ACP 180 180 LWC Red Dot 4.8 900 14100 Alliant
45 ACP 185 185 JHP Red Dot 5.9 940 19500 Alliant
45 ACP 185 CAST: Lyman #452389 185gr Red Dot 5.5 1011 CastLoads L1
45 ACP 185 CAST: RCBS 45-185-BB 185gr red dot 4.6 807 CastData R1
45 ACP 200 200 LSW (Target) Red Dot 4 805 Alliant
45 ACP 200 CAST: Lyman #452460 200gr Red Dot 5.4 949 CastLoads L1
45 ACP 200 200 JHP Red Dot 5.2 890 19200 Alliant
45 ACP 201 CAST: RCBS 45-201-SWC 201gr red dot 4.5 832 CastData R1
45 ACP 230 230 FMC Red Dot 5 910 16200 Alliant
45 ACP 230 230 JHP Red Dot 5 820 19500 Alliant
45 ACP 230 230 L (Target) Red Dot 4 810 12800 Alliant
45 ACP 230 CAST: Lyman #452374 230gr Red Dot 5.3 880 CastLoads L1
45 ACP 230 CAST: RCBS 45-230-RN 230gr red dot 5.1 861 CastData R1
45 ACP 240 240 JHP Red Dot 4.5 770 19200 Alliant

[AzRednek]

Doc's data looks good to me and is pretty complete. I favor cast lead for 45 target shooting. Might be my guns or simply in my head but lead has always given me better shot to shot accuracy in 45 auto. Years ago I had some swaged 200 gr lead slugs that shot remarkably good. With my shooting ability deteriorating due to age and failing eyesight. I seriously doubt I could see much difference today.

[karlunity]

Well done Dr. Hess

 

karl