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7Mm Mauser (7X57) "project"


Dr.Hess

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I figured why drill holes and run lag screws into the bench to mount the barrel vice that I might use once every ten years? The giant C clamps held it just fine.

 

Shot it today with some 130GR Spitzers, 126-ish GR water-cast round nose with store bought gas checks from the Lee mould and the 167-ish GR water-cast/store bought gas checks from the Lyman mould. Prone, with a rest. With the 130GR Spitzers and the home brews from the Lee mould, I had 5 shot groups of 3 touching and 2 fliers. The heavier cast bullets were a lot bigger group. I might have had them seated too deep as well. All were 32.1GR of H4895. My shoulder took a bit of a beating, especially with the heavy bullet. Gonna have a good bruise there. I'm not used to this style rifle, and there's no recoil pad, just a hard plastic butt plate.

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Doc I keep a slip on pad handy in my shooting bag. It is a reproduction of the WW2 M-1 sniper rifle slip on pad. It is loose and sloppy fitting on most non military rifles but makes it easy to take off and on or off one rifle on to another. The slip-on came with two interior pads. One usually gives enough cushion keeping your face close enough so you don't have to fool around with the eye relief adjustment. I'll see if I have a picture in my files and edit it in. See them at gunshows with the merchants selling the repo bayonets and other Chinese repo accessories.

 

Your mileage may vary but I get the best shot to shot accuracy with cast slugs in rifles using a heavy crimp. I really like the Lee Factory Crimp die. Can really put a tight crimp without swelling the shoulder a convectional seating/crimp die will. The downside to a heavy crimp is it shortens brass life. Have to keep your

eyes on the neck looking for splits.

 

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Yeah, I think a slip-on recoil pad would help a lot there. Recoil isn't really that bad, but I did get a bruise. Guess I'm just not the 458 Win Mag type of shooter. Wearing a jacket would help a lot too. It's definitely T-shirt weather here this time of year.


I have noticed a slight problem: Longer bullets have feed problems, especially from the left part of the magazine. The tip runs into the back of the barrel. I have to load them shorter to prevent this and ensure good feeding, especially from the left. The round nose are even worse than the spitzer type. I think that if the right side of the receiver, just over the feed ramp, had a hump in it, it would push the rounds more to the chamber and I could load them longer. Has anyone else run into this problem? I don't want to weld on the receiver, especially so close to the lugs. Maybe some JB Weld? Or that low temp aluminum stick stuff? I think that will stick to steel as well. Or maybe some epoxy clay?

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  • 3 weeks later...

Annealing the Brass.

 

Given the minor PITA in making brass, I thought I would anneal it so that it would last longer. "They Say" that annealed brass will be more accurate and tend to split case necks less. That is, we can reload them more.

 

There are various methods of annealing brass out here in teh Intr4w3bz, y0, plus reloading manuals, ancient wisdom passed down through the ages, wives tales, etc. I experimented with heating the brass up with a propane torch while I held it with some pliers. It was going really slow and I don't think I ever got it hot enough. My digital pyrometer (HF) never had it getting up beyond about 450F. Another technique (we'll all be killed...) was to heat up a pot of lead and dip the necks down into the molten lead. Lead melts around 650F for our alloys, and that's about where you want the brass necks to be to anneal them. You don't want the base of the cartridge to heat up and anneal, as that would severely weaken the brass and lead to ruptures and Other Very Bad Things. You only want the necks heated up. I took the brass, picked up with some pliers, and dipped the necks into the molten lead. Brass that has been deprimed seemed to work out better. I held it in the lead for a count of 10 and then pulled it up and dropped it in a bucket of water. Again, water and molten lead are Very Bad Things to get together. I didn't have any problems, but any residual powder or primer component could be catastrophic. I think that a face shield, gloves and long sleeves would be a good idea for this project. On some cases, the lead would tend to stick to the walls, some in and some outside. This brushes off very easily. The outside will flake off with your fingernail. The inside will come out with a case neck brush or even a dental pick or small screwdriver. Just inspect them when you're done. To dry them after the water, I drain the cases, then put them on a cookie sheet in the oven set at 200 for a while. Come out nice and dry.

 

Shooting them, I ran through about 40 this weekend. Previous batches or 30 or 40 would produce 2 or 3 split necks. This batch that I annealed had no split necks. While that may or may not be statistically significant, it is anecdotally interesting. I had 5 cases primed that I didn't anneal. I loaded them up at the same time with the same loads with 10 annealed cases. I'll have to say, I think the annealed cases shot better, and they seemed to function better in the rifle. That is, the bolt closed easier.

 

Also, with the annealed cases, I tried some Varget powder with the big 168GR HPBTM's. I loaded it up pretty hot with the Varget, close to the max load. Like 37.6 or so, don't quote me, I'd have to check my notes. They actually shot pretty well, much better than the 32.1GR of H4895, which shot terrible. I also tightened up the action/wood, putting a shorter pillar in which removed looseness, so that could have contributed to that as well. 32.1GR of Varget with the 167GR cast Lyman boolit didn't shoot worth a darn. I'm wondering if this barrel just needs the velocity to get it to group.

 

I did run a batch of about a hundred boolits out of my new (replacement) Lee 132GR mold, since I had the lead hot for the annealing. They came out MUCH better than the last Lee mold that I sent back. That one was just a bad mold, I think. These look really nice. You can't even see a line where the 2 mold halves come together. Water cast, with a store-bought gas check and in front of 32.1gr of H4895, they shot really, really well. Also, I didn't observe any barrel leading either, despite pretty good velocity by load specs for a cast bullet. At 50 yards, that shot about an inch low, with the 168 HPBTM hot load about 1" high and the same hot load of Varget behind a 140GR SPBT about 2" high. I think that Lee bullet, water cast, store-bought (for now) gas check and 32.1gr H4895 will be my plinker load until I run out of H4895, which will be soon at this rate. If I can get it to group with Varget or something else I have in stock, that will do it, otherwise, I'll have to try to find some more H4895.

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For what it is worth. In the past when I did anneal re-formed brass it was usually after the 2nd or 3rd firing. About the same time it will need to be trimmed again. Generally any defect in the brass is going to show itself on the first or 2nd firing. My method although it was inconsistent worked ok. I sat on my pool deck, heated the shoulder area with a torch holding the brass with heavy gardening gloves. I just developed a feel for it, right before the brass reached the level I could no longer deal with the heat through the gloves. I'd stick the brass into the pool water.

 

At the time I had hundreds, perhaps a couple thousand of the 06 blanks like I sent. If one didn't turn out, look or feel right. Into the scrap pile. With the changes since then. No where near the income I had then, brass was abundant and cheap and I had what I thought would be a never ending supply. I take a bit more care and pay closer attention. I no longer and thankfully have a swimming pool. If the ol'lady is not around I can anneal at the kitchen sink or do it outside using a bucket of water. I'm with you, molten lead and water close by, BAD IDEA. On the Cast Boolit forum a mis-hap is named "a visit from the tinsel fairy". My carport ceiling still wears some tinsel.

 

BTW after clicking on the pics to see the bluing. In all honesty I didn't look to hard at the metal. The stock grabbed my attention, it is a real beaut. For the feeding issue. See if you can't get ahold of Don Marley via private. He no longer hangs here daily but I'm sure he has dealt with the problem.

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It's been a while since I posted at this site, and I have several excuses, changed computers, I cursed windows 8.1 a while but It works, and the cat ate the hard drive, but really just got caught up in life.

I read this post with interest and it mirrored some of my exploits when I was starting out. I'm aware that Dr. Hess is a talented individual who adhere's to the "home made and handy" mantra that I try to maintain if possible, unless there is no option. My hat's off to Dr. Hess for turning a plowshare into a working firearm of which he can be proud. After all, isn't this what this site is all about?

I've always used the pan of water method for annealing brass, and it's quite effective when you get into the swing of things, and quite safe.

I'll be back soon, because I bookmarked the site.

 

 

Spiris

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It's been a while since I posted at this site, and I have several excuses, changed computers, I cursed windows 8.1 a while but It works, and the cat ate the hard drive, but really just got caught up in life.

I read this post with interest and it mirrored some of my exploits when I was starting out. I'm aware that Dr. Hess is a talented individual who adhere's to the "home made and handy" mantra that I try to maintain if possible, unless there is no option. My hat's off to Dr. Hess for turning a plowshare into a working firearm of which he can be proud. After all, isn't this what this site is all about?

I've always used the pan of water method for annealing brass, and it's quite effective when you get into the swing of things, and quite safe.

I'll be back soon, because I bookmarked the site.

 

 

Spiris

Welcome back! I'm looking forward to reading your contributions.

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  • 1 year later...

The June 2016 American Rifleman has an article starting on Page 48, "The Guns of the Boer Commandos." Prominent mention is given to the 7x57 Mauser. Specifically, "Indeed, while some of these accounts would appear to be a bit far-fetched, most of them are very reasonable, and they all agree that most anyone within 600 yds. of the Boers' firing line was a dead man."

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I just read the first half of that article today when I was interrupted by a visitor.

 

Our history books fail to mention the job the Spaniards with 7X57 Mausers did to US soldiers in Roosevelt's glorified charge up San Juan Hill. Greatly out numbered Spaniard soldiers armed with the then new 1893 Mauser chambered in 7X57 inflicted over 1500 US casualties. From what I recall reading. Roosevelt's Rough Riders were armed with Krag 30/40's and also had the new Colt Potato Digger machinegun. The majority of US soldiers were shooting 45/70 rifles and a few Gatlings also shooting the black powder 45/70. The black powder cloud revealed US positions and they were easily picked off at long distances with the 7X57. .

 

Although there are modern 7MM's that are considerably more powerful. The 7X57, like 257 Roberts or 41 Mag seem to have loyal following. My experience with 7X57's in the early 70's didn't go well. Shooting $25-30 Spanish surplus rifles with unreliable surplus ammo. We got exactly what we paid for. I lost interest in 7X57 until a friend got a Venezuelan (I think) FN-49 chambered in 7X57. My friend had to give up the FN-49 in a divorce settlement. Before he surrendered it to his X's attorney. We took it to the desert and shot several hundred rds picking off rocks at long distances. With 20 something year old eyesight the long range accuracy using Kentucky windage was on par or better than an 03 Springfield.

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Ballistically, it is virtually identical to a 7mm-08, which is a 308 necked down to 7mm. When you go through the load data for the 7x57 and compare it to the 7mm-08, you really see the similarities. You can't rechamber one to the other, through. One is longer and one is fatter.

 

I've kinda grown fond of the round. Sentimental, I suppose, being the cartridge of lost causes and all. I think that another incident to add, although details are a bit obscure, is the Yugo's, or whatever they were called 100+ years ago, versus the Turks. The Yugo's had 7x57 Mausers. Shortly afterwards, the Turks rearmed with 7x57 Mausers. I suspect it was result of facing the Yugo's, but I've found nothing that directly says that. The Yugo's did kick the muzzy's butt with it though, so their cause wasn't lost at that time. The Turks later changed to 8x57's, but insisted that their receivers be small ring threads because of all the small ring Mausers they still had around, left over from the 7x57 days.

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Just for sentimental reasons I grew fond of the 308 Norma Mag and 41 mag. Both calibers take a back seat to 300 Winchester and 44 Mag.

In the 70's I got caught up in the Dirty Harry craze wanting a S&W 44 mag but either couldn't afford to or simply refused to pay the jacked up prices. S&W 44's with a suggested retail of about 279 couldn't be had for under 500. After hard negotiations with a gun shop best he'd do was knock 10 bucks off the 44. Under the same counter he had an identical looking and feeling 41. I was out the door with the 41 for about 260. I beat him down on the 41 about 20 bucks with him keeping the S&W factory wood box.

Suffering from magnumitus in my 20's. I just had to have a boomer to show off at our deer hunting camp. The prior year I took quite a razzing about hunting with my 1950's Interarms factory sported Spanish 8MM. I bought a Voere Mauser factory chambered in 308 Norma and the love affair with the cartridge began. 308 Norma was very popular in the 50's through the 60's. Norma copy-catted and renamed the 338/06 Wildcat. Back in the days when it was cool to sport or as hard core collectors like to say "butcher" a Springfield, Enfield or other 30/06 mil-surps. Norma in their marketing strategy sold chamber and bolt face reamers dirt cheap or gave them as a free-be with a generous ammo order from gun shops. After European manufactures like Voere, Parker Hale, Alpine and some others began factory chambering in 308 Norma. Winchester introduced their 300 Magnum and it pretty well led to the demise of the popularity of the 308 Norma.


Today being 65 I will only shoot either the 41 or Norma with reduced handloads. I guess age made me recoil sensitive. I sighted in the Voere with a max load launching a 220gr slug about 12 or so years ago. Since then I've only shot 150gr slugs using milder 308 Winchester loading data as a guide. Today a box of genuine Norma mfd 308 or 358 mags if you can find it will set you back about $120.00.

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I've had my FN Mauser in 308 Norma for many years, and it's been several years since i shot it. I've posted pics of it on this site before I believe, as it's a handsome rifle IMO. My handload for it is 71gr of H4350, CCI magnum primer, with a 165gr Nosler BT in Norma brass of course. I have not chronographed the load, but estimate around 3000fps for the load. I have never hunted with it as it's a bit of overkill for game in the mid-Atlantic states. Hodgdon has loads listed for the 308 Norma on their load site, www.hodgdon.com. A 6.5x55 or a 30-30 lever gun fits the bill for any of the big game in VA or NC.

I've never owned a 7mm Mauser, but the caliber is very efficient and effective for most game, much like the 6.5x55.

 

 

Spiris

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If you come across a 1970's issue of Frank Barnes' Cartridges of the World. I recall an article on various wildcat cartridges based on the 7X57. The only one that in today's lingo of going viral was the 257 Roberts. The 22-250 has its roots with the 7X57. The 250 Savage which likely originated from a necked down 7X57 was the parent cartridge for the 22-250. To the best of my knowledge the 7X57's rim .470 - .473 rim was used in nearly every non-belted rimless cartridge developed in the 20th century. been way to many years since I read it. Ackley did quite a bit of wildcatting with the 7X57.

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  • 7 months later...

Love the 7 x 57. My go to load that seems to work in everything is a 139 gr Hornady SP or SST seated a few thous off the lands over 42 gr IMR 4895.

This one went into the freezer thanks to the SST load sent from Ruger No. 1 RSI in 7 x 57. 'Twas a bang-flop.

I've got an 1891 Argie with one of the new old stock 7 mm military barrels that were everywhere for $35. It's got a Lyman aperture and so only for morning hunts with sun coming up, not going down. Hopefully I'll get one with it next year.

Argies are amazingly well machined.

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139GR seems to be "the weight" for the 7x57. Like 168 for .30, 230 for .45, etc., 139 is what is most commonly found and I think was the first loading Way Back When. I need to load up some more 7mm and play with it. This working for a living stuff really cuts into my fun time.

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IIRC correctly the first military loads were 175 gr doing about 2300 fps. Then they went to 154s at much higher velocity.

 

My No. 1 RSI shoots Hornady 175 gr RN into ragged holes - but I can only get 2000 fps out of the 20" barrel. If I wanted 30-30 ballistics I'd shoot a 30-30 :rolleyes:

140s seem "just right" to me. I've tried the 120 gr Nosler ballistic tips but have never gotten much accuracy out of them.

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  • 8 months later...

This month's American Rifleman, (October, 2017) has an article on the 7x57 and 7mm-08. Interesting read. Starts on page 82, by Craig Boddington. So, according to Mr. Boddington: Introduced by Mauser in 1892, oldest cartridge designed for smokeless powder that still retains a following. Chambered to the 93 Mauser, adopted by Spain. Mentions San Juan Hill where 700 Spaniards inflicted more than 1,400 casualties on the Americans with 7x57 Mausers. Transvaal President Paul Kruger purchased 37,000 95 Mausers in 7x57 for the Second Boer War (1899-1902). The overconfident Brits were initially trounced by the sharpshooting Boers. Rigby renames it the .275 Rigby. Two most famous proponents: Walter Dalrymple Maitland "Karamoja" Bell and Jim Corbett. The 7x57 was Bell's favorite, but he didn't kill most of the 1,013 elephants with it. He used a lot of rifles. He used the 173-gr round nose solid. Corbet had a 7x57 given to him "after he killed the Champawat man-eater in 1970." Corbett used it for the rest of his life. He did kill man-eating tigers with it, but preferred his .450/400 Nitro Express double for that. The 7mm was his choice for man-eating leopards and hunting for food.

 

Both the 7x57 and 7mm-08 share similar ballistics and load data, but load data for the 7x57 is dumbed down, I mean downloaded because of the old rifles out there. He says that way back when, 7x57 published load data often exceeded 3000 FPS with a 140GR bullet, but today they stop at 2700-2900.


Anyway, interesting read.

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Started to read the article and will finish it on my next visit on the throne. I've read in various places over the years that Teddy Roosevelt's charge up San Juan with apx 15,000 men against 7-800 Spaniards armed with the new Mauser. Had a major influence on the USA adopting the 03 Springfield. With the exception of TR's mounted Rough Riders armed with Krag Carbines. The majority of US soldiers derived from state militias were armed with single shot 45/70's. Even the 45/70 Gatling Guns didn't have the long range accuracy of the Mausers and crews were picked off by Spanish sharpshooters.

 

Another fact or legend. The ill trained US soldiers wielding bayonets against a handful of highly trained Spanish officers refusing to surrender. Did a real job on Americans with their swords before finally surrendering.

 

Back about 68 or 69 there were two crusty ranch hands in what is now north Scottsdale.They also worked as hunting guides. They would go out in the desert area and tree a Mountain Lion with dogs. Then one of them would drive into one of the resorts, then named Dude Ranches. They'd get paid big bucks by millionaire tourists to hold the lion so the tourist could come out and shoot it. One of the guides carried a 97 Winchester shotgun the other used a surplus Spanish carbine.

 

Never discussed calibers with him but I assume it was 7X57. The guide liked to brag about a foreign tourist that showed up with a photographer, a clingy young attractive woman and what he described as a huge fancy English rifle. The guide claimed the tourist winged the lion and the lion jumped out of the tree in the direction of the tourist. The guide claimed he shot the lion in the air with the rifle he had given it a masculine Spanish name. If I recall correctly named some thing like Juanito. He claimed the lion was dead by the time it hit the ground.

 

My very first Mauser project was a 93 or 95 Spanish rifle with an Interarms hang tag on it. I completely screwed it up by bending the receiver trying to remove the barrel. Paid $17.95 for it in the early 70's. I parted it out on Ebay in the late 90's. Don't remember the numbers but the bolt assembly and stock sold for way to much. I got numerous contacts looking for a mag assy. If I ever find it bet I could easily fetch a hundred for it.

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  • 2 months later...

Here is Kipling's poem on the Boers and their Mausers:

 

Rudyard Kipling

 

Piet

 

(Regular of the Line)

 

I DO not love my Empire’s foes,

Nor call ’em angels; still,

What is the sense of ’atin’ those

’Oom you are paid to kill?

So, barrin’ all that foreign lot

Which only joined for spite,

Myself, I’d just as soon as not

Respect the man I fight.

Ah there, Piet!—’is trousies to ’is knees,

’Is coat-tails lyin’ level in the bullet-sprinkled breeze;

’E does not lose ’is rifle an’ ’e does not lose ’is seat,

I’ve known a lot o’ people ride a dam’ sight worse than Piet.

 

I’ve ’eard ’im cryin’ from the ground

Like Abel’s blood of old,

An’ skirmished out to look, an’ found

The beggar nearly cold.

I’ve waited on till ’e was dead

(Which couldn’t ’elp ’im much),

But many grateful things ’e ’s said

To me for doin’ such.

Ah there, Piet! whose time ’as come to die,

’Is carcase past rebellion, but ’is eyes inquirin’ why.

Though dressed in stolen uniform with badge o’ rank complete,

I’ve known a lot o’ fellers go a dam’ sight worse than Piet.

 

An’ when there was n’t aught to do

But camp and cattle-guards,

I’ve fought with ’im the ’ole day through

At fifteen ’undred yards;

Long afternoons o’ lyin’ still,

An’ ’earin’ as you lay

The bullets swish from ’ill to ’ill

Like scythes among the ’ay.

Ah there, Piet!—be’ind ’is stony kop.

With ’is Boer bread an’ biltong, 1 an’ ’is flask of awful Dop; 2

’Is Mauser for amusement an’ ’is pony for retreat,

I’ve known a lot o’ fellers shoot a dam’ sight worse than Piet.

 

He’s shoved ’is rifle ’neath my nose

Before I’d time to think,

An’ borrowed all my Sunday clo’es

An’ sent me ’ome in pink;

An’ I ’ave crept (Lord, ’ow I’ve crept!)

On ’ands an’ knees I’ve gone,

And spoored and floored and caught and kept

An’ sent him to Ceylon!

Ah there, Piet!—you’ve sold me many a pup,

When week on week alternate it was you an’ me “’ands up!”

But though I never made you walk man-naked in the ’eat,

I’ve known a lot of fellows stalk a dam’ sight worse than Piet.

 

From Plewman’s to Marabastad,

From Ookiep to De Aar,

Me an’ my trusty friend ’ave ’ad,

As you might say, a war;

But seein’ what both parties done

Before ’e owned defeat,

I ain’t more proud of ’avin’ won,

Than I am pleased with Piet.

Ah there, Piet!—picked up be’ind the drive!

The wonder wasn’t ’ow ’e fought, but ’ow ’e kep’ alive,

With nothin’ in ’is belly, on ’is back, or to ’is feet—

I’ve known a lot o’ men behave a dam’ sight worse than Piet.

 

No more I’ll ’ear ’is rifle crack

Along the block’ouse fence—

The beggar’s on the peaceful tack,

Regardless of expense;

For countin’ what ’e eats an’ draws,

An’ gifts an’ loans as well,

’E’s gettin’ ’alf the Earth, because

’E didn’t give us ’Ell!

Ah there, Piet! with your brand-new English plough,

Your gratis tents an’ cattle, an’ your most ungrateful frow,

You’ve made the British taxpayer rebuild your country-seat—

I’ve known some pet battalions charge a dam’ sight less than Piet.

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  • 3 weeks later...

You ever have the chance, read up on Spion Kop.  The Boers had the Brits pretty well at their mercy, of which they exhibited very little.  By the way, while ele's were shot with various small bores, .275's, .303's, etc.  it was market hunting not sport hunting.  The goal was to kill as many as possible in as short a time as possible and if any were wounded and lost, it was not such a big deal.  The small bore were typically (as I understand) used for heart and lung shots owing to their deep penetration.  If the critter died or at least slowed down for a follow up within a mile or ten the vultures would tell where before the ivory spoiled.   Yes, small bores were used for such things.  They have been used by a few to "prove it can be done" since (before minimum caliber laws we must assume).  I recall an neat old article by Finn Aagard about a big stock killing leopard being killed with one by his dad in Kenya when Finn was a boy.   They could be perfectly adequate leopard rifles but otherwise definitely are not modern-day dangerous game chamberings no matter what has been done with them.   I'm still a sucker for old calibers.  Fact is, other than stroger actions that can handle higher pressures, there is little new under the sun when comparing the last quarter century's "new" calibers to those of the 1st quarter of the 20th century.

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That battle of Spion Kop was interesting.  Good write up.

There's a Wikipedia on it too.  Whenever I want to know what an idiot thinks about a subject, I go straight to Wikipedia.  Anyway, interesting read.  Can a citizen soldier based resistance defeat a professional army with unlimited resources?  Couldn't 120 years ago.  50 years ago, the war was lost not on the battlefield, but at home thousands of miles away. 

 

On the hunting thing, I read an article in Firearms News (old SGN) recently on some monster 4 gauge rifles for such things.  They even had a different formula for bullet muzzle energy.  Energy is energy, of course, but the "foot pounds" used today does not equate with stopping power.  Mention was made of some 3xx caliber rifle having the same muzzle energy in ft-lbs as the big bore dangerous game rounds, and hunters seeing that, going after dangerous game with them.  And getting killed by said game.  That's probably what lead to caliber laws for hunting there.  I would think that losing your tourist hunters would be bad for business.

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