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Military Firearm Restoration Corner

Swede Strenght And Gas Handling (question)


littlecanoe

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gun nutty

 

No real arguement with any of the position you take, it is yours to take. My position, based on using the M96/38s since '69, is that they are not softer than M98s. I had an old German who worked for DWM prior to and during the war tell me basically; "Do you think that with the various models of Mausers being made at the same time in the same factory that different steels and different heat treating was used on different models? That would have been very inefficient production." Also over the years investigating mishaps of one sort or another I've learned that many people say things or form opinions based on perception not fact. I prefer to go with facts. I've been shooting the 6.5 loads as I mentioned previously for years without any set back. I've rebarreled several to 6mm Rem, .257 Roberts and 6.5x57 and they've been loaded up to top velocity (safe pressures for the cartridge) and used extesively for years. And as mentioned previously I know of numerous of the rebarreled Kimbers that aren't giving any problems. Those are the facts. I'm planning on getting my own pressure testing equipment in a couple months. The M38 in 6.5 is one of the first rifle/cartridges I will test.

 

Larry Gibson

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Gun nutty

 

Well that shop in Lassen is the only place I've heard of Kimber's returned with lug set back. I would still like to see one for myself as I've not seen any yet.

 

Larry Gibson

 

Larry,

 

Feel free to call the school and ask for John Martin, one of the instructors, and ask him about the Kimbers. I've another friend who went through the program that saw the same. Maybe all three of us are hallucinating?

 

You couldn't get me to sell my Husky 96's and other Swedish made sporters based off the action but you also couldn't get me to rebarrel them to a high pressure round or shoot hot loads through them. There are too many other better actions around. Have you ever considered why the Swedes used the 96 for so many sporting rounds? Could it be limited production of alternative actions? Excess supply of 96's? Even the guys at Schultz and Larson understand the limitations of the 96's.

 

But, as you say, we still have some freedom of choice in this country, feel free to exercise yours.

 

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CG96's are my favorite Mauser,but no way would I chamber a high pressure caliber in one either.I have a Husky 308 made in the 70's,and it is in no way a 96.Z said there are stronger actions to use for higher pressure rounds,but he didn't mention they're cheaper too.A VZ 24 OR 98/22 is about 1/2 price of a Swede,and about twice as strong or safe.That's just my opinion.Jerry

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I once saw a 96 Swede at a gun show that was chambered in 7mm Mag. It looked good and the price wasn't bad, but I wouldn't touch it.......... I saw that rifle at several shows, no one would buy it. I'll stick to 6.5x55 in my swedes.

Bob

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Larry,

 

Feel free to call the school and ask for John Martin, one of the instructors, and ask him about the Kimbers. I've another friend who went through the program that saw the same. Maybe all three of us are hallucinating?

 

But, as you say, we still have some freedom of choice in this country, feel free to exercise yours.

 

 

Phone number for Mr. Martin?

 

Larry Gibson

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http://www.lassengunsmithing.com/

 

Phone numbers for the college there.

 

Looks like a nice campus in sunny California. California has an added advantage of having very fat burritos, which is always a good thing :) Says NE California... How close is that to Wine Country? Cabernet is always so good. Man, trips to Ensenada would be too much of a pain though. No Rolex watches and cheap tequila. Oh well.

 

It's interesting seeing the differing views on the strengths of Swedes. De Haas felt they were safer than other small rings, but not necessarily stronger. Most others lump them in with the other small rings. I imagine heat treatment would do wonders. If I ever get ahold of a good Swede action, I think a 6.5X57 or 9.3X57 would be da thang.

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Gun Nutty,

 

The 9.3x57 is the bomb on a 96. They operate at low pressure and deliver a knock out punch that is hard to argue with. One thing you have to remember is that all contract Mausers were just that, built for a specific contract. Thus each variant was built around the specs laid out by the ordinance boards which were negotiating the contract. One of the main specs was the cartridge the rifle was designed around. The Swedes were no different. They built the action (including heat treatment of it) around the pressures at which the 6.5x55 operated at. Today's powders burn with much more vigor than the powders of old and that needs to be considered but is rarely factored into the equation. One needs to take a look at the pressure spikes of a given load. Remember that the pressure figures thrown around show average. There are spikes in the burn pattern that greatly exceed the average. It is both the peak and the pattern of spikes that act as a jack hammer on the seats and leads to set back. So, yes, a re-heat treatment of the action could in fact help some if properly done. But again, it does nothing to improve the inferior gas handling ability of the action. That is why I will only build for low pressure rounds on the action. Anything operating at higher pressures is built on a 98. Again, there is nothing stopping any individual from building what they want on a 96, this is just my rational with associated research supporting it.

 

Thanks for posting the info to Lassen. No where near the whine country, pun intended. Much closer to Reno. There was a nice Swede which was crudely sported but not messed up in the local gun emporium recently for $150. If I'd had a job, I'd have bought it. I want another 9.3x57, lol.

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z1r,

 

What velocities are you getting with xx gr bullet in the 9.3x57? Muzzle Energy?

Where would this cartridge fit compared to a 35 Whelan? Brother or distant cousin?

 

Thanks

lc

 

LC,

 

I am getting 2100 fps with AA2230C and a Prvi Partizan 286 grain soft point. In a 98 you could get within 100 fps of the 9.3x62 which runs neck in neck with the Whelen. But in the 96 it is more like comparing a .300 savage with a .30-06. Both will get the job done, but you will have to spot the larger cartridge a 75 to 100 yds. Considering my rifles only have open sights 200 yds is more than enough. And when you consider how light the 96's you can appreciate the cartridge for what it is.

 

-Mike

 

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Here is an old thread from a neighboring forum related to a M96 failure(with pics).

 

http://www.gunboards.com/forums/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=138492

 

Classic case of SEE if you ask me. Is common with 6.5 Swedes and in fact the cause of SEE was discovered because of dangerous factory loads in 6.5x55. I've seen other "modern" and stronger actions in much worse shape after an SEE.

 

Larry Gibson

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Classic case of SEE if you ask me. Is common with 6.5 Swedes and in fact the cause of SEE was discovered because of dangerous factory loads in 6.5x55. I've seen other "modern" and stronger actions in much worse shape after an SEE.

 

Larry Gibson

 

Naw,

 

Most likely a case of the bolt being carburised a second time by accident or simply a faulty job the first time. Some of the early post war FN 98 sporters exhibit the exact same type of lug shearing. The cause was traced back to to FN using surplus bolts which they arc welded new sporter handles onto. Then, they carburised the entire assembly again to reharden the cocking & extractor cams. As a result, the balance of the bolt became too brittle. Here's a pic of the FN 98 failure: LeftLug2.jpg

 

The lugs tested in the mid 60's on the RC scale. They should be in the mid 40's max.

 

-Mike

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Naw,

 

Most likely a case of the bolt being carburised a second time by accident or simply a faulty job the first time. Some of the early post war FN 98 sporters exhibit the exact same type of lug shearing. The cause was traced back to to FN using surplus bolts which they arc welded new sporter handles onto. Then, they carburised the entire assembly again to reharden the cocking & extractor cams. As a result, the balance of the bolt became too brittle. Here's a pic of the FN 98 failure: LeftLug2.jpg

 

The lugs tested in the mid 60's on the RC scale. They should be in the mid 40's max.

 

-Mike

 

Go back and look at the original photo's, a carburized bolt does not blow primer pockets like that - excessive pressure does.

 

Larry Gibson

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Go back and look at the original photo's, a carburized bolt does not blow primer pockets like that - excessive pressure does.

 

Larry Gibson

 

Larry,

 

I'm not disputing the fact that the primer may have let go. Let's say it did. The fact is that had the bolt been properly carburised it would not have sheared the lugs. An overly hard receiver( or bolt) does not just self destruct without some type of event to initiate it's coming apart.

 

 

 

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Very interesting thread, guys.

 

After I had a home-made O1 reamer break while reaming a chamber I began to appreciate the value of "soft" steel.

 

Man that hard O1 would take an edge, but if I would have dropped it on the floor it would have shattered into pieces.

 

I can see where a bolt would be a real trade off. You want it hard enough so that it doesn't wear and cycles smooth as glass, but you sure don't want it breaking like glass.

 

The guy on the other board with the 96 bolt that let go was lucky that it just had enough oomph to snap the lugs. Much more and it would have snapped his neck too.

 

This is a dangerous game that we play. If it wasn't so much fun it wouldn't be worth it.

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