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7.65x53 Or 7.65x54?


ken98k

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I recently bought some Argentine made 7.65x54surplus ammo. Did argentina switch from 53 to 54 at some point? There is some resistance when closing the bolt on my 1909 calvery carbine.

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  • 7 months later...

Some mfrs call it 54 some 53, same round.

Don

 

Don, this may sound funny but some years back I bought some argentine FM 7.65x54 sporting ammunition. Figured it would chamber in my '91 argie. Nope, nada and zilch. Lotta head scratching going on. Dug out a military cartridge in the same caliber and there is a difference. So dumped the powder after measuring the weight of the powder charge, resized all 75 cases and trimmed to 7.65x53 reduced the powder charge by 5 grains and reseated the soft points that were origionally loaded. I believe that there was an article

in guns and ammo some years back where the author had a argentine mauser in the 53mm length and had tried to load and shoot 54mm length ammo. Said he had talked to the company he got the rifle from. They were aware of the problem but couldn't do anything about it. I make my 7.65x53 cases from some old 1955 Israeli 8mm I bought back before the flood. Since I have a form and trim die in this caliber its not much of a problem to make cases in this caliber. I believe that the writer was using a 1909 argentine mauser at the time. Frank

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Actually the case is 53.5mm. So, some call it 7.65x53 some 7.65x54. Some call it 7.65 Argentine. No difference.

 

I've heard SF Argie ammo tends to run long. I think it's more of a tolerance issue than anything else.

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  • 2 weeks later...

I recently bought some Argentine made 7.65x<u>54</u>surplus ammo. Did argentina switch from 53 to 54 at some point? There is some resistance when closing the bolt on my 1909 calvery carbine.

Hi guys havent been here for a while baby and new house have kept me busy. But I went through all this awhile back. youll find norma brass is sized perfectly for your 1909 including their factory ammo. the new privipartisan brass from grafs is sized for the 1891 argentines youll have to bump shoulder back for the 1909. Since I was going to build a persian with a new lothar barrel I got headspace guages made from jgs I ordered the argentine no way would it fit either new euro cip specs. So I ordered the belgian go guage it fit the 1891 perfectly for the 1909 I had to get one .010 shorter. I read a article long ago that do to extraction dificulties in the 1891 with the puny extractor they cut the chambers .010 deeper for a looser tolerance.

both have enough clearance if brass is 2.1 in length or shorter. argentine ammo from last lots 1970 or 1981 is way out of spec brass is all over the place for shoulder placement and bullet bases are not square on the boattail someone told me this ammo was made for haiti . The only die set I use now is a old lyman and a rcbs form die cause they are the only one that will set shoulder back far enough.Even rcbs belgian mauser die set I bought wont set shoulder back enough. Hope that help yah out.aaron10

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Best I recall it was X53.5. some countries designated it 53 and others 54. In the 80’s a friend bought some Argie manufactured soft nose 765 sporting ammo. There was a warning in Spanish on the box discouraging it’s use it in 91’s but being young and stupid we did it anyway.  

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Now that you mentino it, Az, I seem to recall that they just kinda changed the name on that round.  Well, if I had the ammo and it fit the chamber, I would consider giving it a try.  Always best to wear safety glasses with these antiques.

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18 hours ago, Dr.Hess said:

Now that you mentino it, Az, I seem to recall that they just kinda changed the name on that round.  Well, if I had the ammo and it fit the chamber, I would consider giving it a try.  Always best to wear safety glasses with these antiques.

I can’t say it enough and have posted it here and other boards warning about shooting the 91 Argie. The 91’s do no not have the port to relieve gas escaping over the shoulder or even worse a ruptured cartridge. I learned the hard way.  Was fire forming Canadian 30/06 blanks into 7MM, 7.7, 8MM and 7.65 Argie. I had an Argie blow back into my face and literally fried the plastic lens of my shooting glasses. If not for the safety glasses it would have been my eyeball. The mishap was really my fault. While reforming the brass it left a big dimple on the shoulder. I did fireform some of the Argie brass with .308 bullets and it may have not been enough pressure to completely iron it out. While reforming brass I occasionally got a dimple but prior to the Argie incident the fire forming always ironed it out.

 

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My Spanish Mausers have the gas hole they drilled on the left for venting.  Still, eye protection is A Good Thing.  One of the reasons I never went for the corrective eye surgery is that I kinda prefer having a barrier in front of my eyes.  I don't know how many times I've been working on something and something flies and hits my glasses.  I remind myself that had I not been wearing my glasses, that could have been bad.

 

I formed those 30-06 blanks you sent me into 7x57.  They work great.  Thanks again.

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I believe Mauser started with the gas port on the Model 93’s. I commented years ago about a gunsmith refusing the job drilling a gas port on a few 91 Argies I had at the time. Pretty sure it was former member Z1R a dam good gunsmith. Posted it was an easy job but not worth the liability risk. Years ago I had an 06 cartridge literally blow apart in my low serial number 03 but the gas port did its job I didn’t feel anything on my face. I was afraid at first I had one of the low serial number cracked receivers. I had to beat the bolt open with a rubber mallet but the rifle was OK. An 85+ year old guy that occasionally tagged along with us mistakenly shot an 8X57 in an 03. The cartridge split, smoke rolled out of the receiver. He was OK just embarrassed and hurt pride. 
 

BTW Doc that Mauser stock I have is for a commercial Santa Barbra 98.

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I'd have to check my books, but I believe the original 93's sold to Spain did not have the gas port.  When the Spanish refurbished them, they added the holes. Then when the Spanish started making their own, they made them with the holes.  The 95 Chileans I have do not have the holes in the receiver.  I don't recall if the bolts are different than the 93's as far as gas porting.

7mm_Chilean_CHK3.thumb.jpg.e69ae4bc383b3f7f6f3af79290cab6dd.jpg

I knew a class 3 dealer once, back in the 80's, that got one of those low number 03's.  I think they were drill rifles.  If I recall, either he or his brother cleaned up the weld or whatever was done to disable it and his brother was shooting it and the receiver blew up in his face. 

I have two commercial sporter 98 stocks laying around.  One new small ring stock I bought from Brownells.  Several small ring projects, maybe one large ring project.  Thanks for looking.

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You’re likely correct on the gas holes. Been to many years to recall if I had them on my 93 and 95’s all Spanish. Best I remember I had a 93 or 95 Spanish that was refurbed by Nazi Germany. It had Nazi stampings on the underside of the receiver that could only be seen when removed from the stock. The likely history, Hitler probably ordered one of his German arsenals doing it for his pal Gen Franco to fight in their civil war. It was a good job, bolt polished bright, re-blued refinished stock and hand guard and bright and shiny bore. I didn’t know enough at the time to tell if it was re-barreled. Wish I hung on to it, don’t remember if it was a 93 with a flat bottom bolt or a 95 with round bolt. I don’t recall if a gas port hole being drilled or not in the refurb.

I traded the refurbed Spanish for a M-1 Carbine assembled by the fly by night National Ordnance. After National could no longer could get surplus receivers they cast not forged replacements. I probably shot it less than a hundred rds, The barrel came loose, I removed the barrel by hand with stripped receiver threads attached. I also had a bad experience with a National Ordinance Tanker Garand and I read some horror stories years later after the company folded about 03’s with cast receivers. At the time early to mid 70’s there was no internet or any bad press in the gun rags. Being ignorant in my 20’s at the time I thought National Ordinance was a real govt arsenal. What a surprise when  I read about them 20+ years later in a Gun Digest or Shooters Bible. The kid I traded with an avid Nazi collector, his dad was a CB Radio bud were unaware of the problems. At the time the Spaniard costing me about $30 from a neighbor needing money. Would have been a bad trade offer for a M-1 Carbine. Once the kid saw the Nazi Eagle stampings he had to have it rejecting dad’s attempt to negotiate for cash on my end. The kid a couple years later did me a big favor for me dealing with my weirdo neighbor making it well worth the loss.
 

An amusing tale the night we traded. Dads wife and kids mother was his WW2 Jap war bride. Seeing the guns she freaked out very loudly rattling away in Japanese. Dad kept repeatedly yelled speak English yah dum Jap while he pulled his eyes giving the slanted eye look. Five minutes later she calmed down telling us in broken English be careful guns kill people. 

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