Small Ring 98?

[Ron J]

I put this in this section cause I'm gettin an error message in "mauser" that I don't have permission to start a topic there. Confused, but anyway, what are the "small ring 98's" that Kuhnhausen refers to in his book. For ex: VZ-33 & VZ 47 Commercial BRNO Czechs and KAR 98 Erfert Danzig. Do they look like 98's or more like Swedes? I don't recall ever seeing these in gunshows, but they seem interesting as donors.

[Doble Troble]

They look like cute little 98s. They've become popular/trendy for light weight sporters and difficult for a short-armer like me to get ahold of (ooh, I can't reach my wallet).

 

The Mexicans fall into this category too. I managed to get an action without a bolt that I'll get around to doing something with someday. Maybe I'll make a 6 mm Rem?

[z1r]

Here's a pic of a nice g33/40 done by Tom Burgess.

 

 

 

 

The G33/40 is a standard length SR 98

 

Here's a pic of a Mexican SR 98.

 

 

The mexican is intermediate length.

 

You'll note that the distinguishing feature of the small ring is that there is no step on the left side of the action between siderail and receiver ring. The G33/40 is the exception to this rule due to the siderail being reduced in thickness to lighten the action.

[Ron J]

Do they have any particular drawbacks? Are some more desirable than others from a material / heat treat standpoint? For some reason I find small rings real interesting.

[montea6b]

Walnut, I'll bet you were trying to post to the mauser section in archives. That happened to me once and it took a while to figure out what was going on.

 

Z, I have heard good things about the G33/40, (and seen pictures of pretty sporters built on them) but know next to nothing about it. Briefly, who made them, and when were they produced? Are they military actions?

[z1r]

The G33/40 was made by the Czechs for the Germans in WWII. It employed several weight saving features including the small ring, relief cuts under the side rails along each side, a thinned left side rail, and a hollow bolt knob. It was a mountain rifle as well as other things. They used to be a dime a dozen, now you can't touch one for under $600 mimimum.

 

The small rings can be built into very nice light weight rifles but not because the action itself weighs much less, in fact, the SR Mexican weighs the same 48 oz that a standard 98 does. They can be buuilt light because barrel profile can be kept small due to the front ring size. You can turn a 22" SR barrel that weighs just 2 lbs. Plus the stock can be kept trim & thin.

[724wd]

Z, if it's the barrel profile that is the weight savings, why cant you turn the barrel profile on a standard 98 to the same diameter, thus getting the same weight savings? wasnt it you that said you dont need the outer shoulder on the barrel at all, but that we usually leave it there for asthetics? unless you are getting the barrel so thin that the chamber wall becomes an issue, it all sounds like academics to me...

[z1r]

Z, if it's the barrel profile that is the weight savings, why cant you turn the barrel profile on a standard 98 to the same diameter, thus getting the same weight savings? wasnt it you that said you dont need the outer shoulder on the barrel at all, but that we usually leave it there for asthetics? unless you are getting the barrel so thin that the chamber wall becomes an issue, it all sounds like academics to me...

 

 

Cuz it looks like shite! You can, but there is a pronounced step that most folks commisioning a custom rifle find objectionable. They like things to blend in and look proportionate. Don't get me wrong, that G33/40 action is lighter and on a mauser even a few ounces helps. But, ltes not forget that on a LR you need a much wider stock to fit the front ring into. It's all about proportions.

[Ron J]

Love that 33-40. Assuming some work like the "shaping receiver" thread with the surface grinder, re-heat treat and reasonable cartridge pressures, one could do this to a Kale. Or even an intermediate if one could be found with .980 threads. 22" tube, light stock, open sights, handy little rifle.

[z1r]

Nope, can't safely do this to a K.Kale.

[Ron J]

Why not? Internal lug recesses different from LR to SR?

[z1r]

On the K.Kale the thread relief cut directly in fornt of the "C" ring is cut to normal LR depth. Reducing ring diameter leaves you with a wall that is too thin. Much the same as was the problem with the small ring large thread receivers of WWI. If you like takedown rifles, go ahead, lol.

[724wd]

Z, just for clarification, what large ring actions would be suitable for reducing to G33/44 dimentions? this question comes up a lot, and although we all take your word as to what actions not to use, i have not seen a list or suggestion of what action you could do this with.

[Ron J]

Yeah, good question. While you're at it can a WW1 small ring with large threads be identified without taking the barrel off?

Take-down rifle, good one Z. I spit water on my keyboard reading that.

[z1r]

Yeah, good question. While you're at it can a WW1 small ring with large threads be identified without taking the barrel off?

Take-down rifle, good one Z. I spit water on my keyboard reading that.

 

Yeah, they say KAR or KARa on the side.

 

Z, just for clarification, what large ring actions would be suitable for reducing to G33/44 dimentions? this question comes up a lot, and although we all take your word as to what actions not to use, i have not seen a list or suggestion of what action you could do this with.

 

 

None really. But the technical answer would be any that don't have the LR relief cut in front of the "C" ring. As with all things Mauser you should evaluate each individual receiver for what it is.

 

The one that does lend it self better than most is the 1909 Peruvian but they cost damn near as much as a real G33/40 and they are only an intermediate length action.

[z1r]

Here's a commercial Brno SR 98.

 

[Ron J]

I see. Then the Erfurt that Kenak posted about is a SR 98 rec with LR threads and consequently the larger diameter relief cut, which is why you warned about headspace from front ring stretch. The Kale was machined the same as a std 98 with the exception of the tap drill being smaller thus the same relief cut as the 1.100" thd. It would be real interesting to see / know the machine work used back then. Even a rough a$$ Turk has alot of steps in mfg.

And then there's the Swedes. Nuff said. Thanks again for knowledge sharing.

[z1r]

Excellent deciphering of my ramblings!

[Ron J]

Your ramblings, and a few others', relegate some book pages out there to the bottom of a birdcage.

Gunshows in December, hopefully a bonus from work and small rings, not sugarplums, dancin in my head!

[z1r]

Your ramblings, and a few others', relegate some book pages out there to the bottom of a birdcage.

Gunshows in December, hopefully a bonus from work and small rings, not sugarplums, dancin in my head!

 

 

And to all a good nioght! Merry X-mas! If you've been good I'm sure Santa will remember.

[Ron J]

Hope he didn't see my truck in front of the strip club on 24th st!

[montea6b]

Z, could you tell me what the purpose of this relief cut is? I looked on one of may actions in the area you describe and it appears that the last thread up against the C ring is cut out. I'm guessing that this may be to that the threaded barrel chank won't bottom out prematurely on the threads, but instead can be snugged up against the torque shoulder. Am I close?

 

And speaking of Swedes...

 

I've got a little one I've rambled on about before. It was inherited in semi-sporterized condition, and I've been tinkering with it somewhat. I'd love to give it the full treatment, but I'm pretty sure it is a '94 carbine and being respectful I'm a little hesitant to make permanent alterations. So, I've thus far confined myself to working on the stock it came with.

 

Of note, when I first heard of the desirability of G33/40s I had to run to the safe and check. This one is stamped "G33/50". It's not a factory stamp, but was obviously put there later. Here are some photos:

 

My Webpage

 

 

[donmarkey]

Z, could you tell me what the purpose of this relief cut is?

IMO is that if they were threaded on a lathe, a relief cut greatly simplifies the threading procedure. Especially when internal threading. If you didn't use one you would have to stop the lathe at the end of the cut not just the feed. If they were threaded using a tap, it would prevent it from having a short thread on the last 1 and half threads. Then you would have to chamfer the barrel shank to get a flush fit.

-Don

[z1r]

You will be astounded to learn the the relief cut happens to be the same diameter as the extractor slot. They used a slotting cutter to cut the extractor slot. The cutter stops at same place and builds up a rolled chip. This breaks from cutter banging in to it eventually, but the fragment often stays in place and can break the cutter. The receiver metal is heat treated to start with so that the chips will break evenly and quickly. The relief cut was added to assist in the chip breaking of thus saving cutters.

 

Monte, that swede has been marked with the importer "remanufacturers" roll stamp on the receiver ring. Thus, it has no collector worth as a rebuilt miliytary model. Do with it as you will and enjoy a nice rifle with a clear conscience. If that barrel shoot's well, I'd replace the issue rear sigh with something a bit classier, put a 1-5x20 scope on it and enjoy handy little woods carbine.

[montea6b]

Thanks for clarifying the relief cut, that makes sense. And thanks for nudging me in the direction I am leaning with this project. I knew that a purist would frown heavily on this importer stamp, but some of the responses here that alerted me to the fact that it was a '94 carbine versus the much more common later version gave me reason to pause.

 

It doesn' shoot that well, but I strongly suspect the bedding. The bore looks good, and I think I'll epoxy bed it and try again before I consider a rebarrel. I had been thinking about replacing the rear sight, do you happen to know if the Williams models for the '96 would work? (page 321 of Brownells catalog #59) I'm hoping for some kind of drop in fit so that I don't have to remove that whole sleeve.