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#1 FC

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Posted 28 January 2007 - 12:14 AM

From Sassnet forums. I would just copy the link, but the postings are eliminated after 30 days, from what I remember:



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1st Post - Black Powder Ammo Question

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North Bender Jan 26 2007, 11:35 PM Post #1

SASS# Guest

Joined: 01/26/07



Hello everybody from Washington State:

I've collected many the used military weapon over the years. But last summer I saw a beatuiful Winchester M94 in a store and walked away with it, and the next thing you know I have a USFA Pre-War on order to match the M94. Seems like a logical progression doesn't it?

I would like to shoot black powder ammo. I don't reload yet, but I will start, seeing as loaded .45 Colt is fairly dear. But first - manufactured ammunition.

My question - what firms load black powder .45 Colt? I've found Goex, are there others? Any ammo vendors who support this board?

And, are there any special restrictions on firing such ammo through a SAA?

Thanks, and I look forward to reading through the previous pages of this fine forum.


Chili Ron Jan 26 2007, 11:48 PM Post #2

SASS# 25068
Kishwaukee Valley
Joined: 07/7/02
From: Way out West of Chicago, Illinois



Pard, howdy an welcome to the wire.
Just head on back to the home page and brouse a bit and you will find
the entire SASS rulebook is just a few clicks away.
Many have tried to change the rules, few succeed.

Look at it this way.
Baseball has three strikes an your out.
Not four, not two.
Not two for night games so folks can get to bed.

A lot of SASS rules are similar.
Somebody had to draw a line and they did.
A lot of variety is allowed so many folks can have fun their own way.
Best
CR



El Sid Jan 26 2007, 11:52 PM Post #3

SASS# 16817

Joined: 12/25/02
From: West Palm Beach, Florida



I usually shoot smokeless but shoot BP and replica powder for fun cowboy action shooting.

When I do load BP the concerns are lubrication compatability and clean-up.

Avoid petrol products. Organic or synthetic are good. Petrol makes tar. If you shoot a few cylinders full, you might start to get fouled and sticky. Oil and/or water will help - I use a mix of 1:1 Ballistol and water.

Clean-up soon with water. A little soap is good. I use Murphy's Oil Soap. Hot water rinse and dry. Oil. I take the gun completely apart to clean.

If using Pyrodex - clean the next day too. Maybe even again a week later.

I haven't shot Con-Bon's ammo but here's a link.

http://www.dakotaamm...owboyaction.htm

El Sid


Jailhouse Jim, SASS #13104 Jan 26 2007, 11:54 PM Post #4

SASS# 13104
5 Dogs Creek Driften' the grub line
Joined: 12/31/05
From: Paso Robles, Ca



You can get loaded black powder ammo through Ten-X, Powder Inc., Great Basin, and others through the links page. Have used all and they are all good. Reloading is the way to go.

Jailhouse Jim


Wampum Goode Yesterday, 12:02 AM Post #5

SASS# 61944
Woverton Mtn. Peacekeepers
Joined: 02/10/05
From: SW Washington



Howdy, and welcome, North Bender. Might be we'll bump into each other one of these days.

Natchez Shooter's Supply ( www.natchezss.com ) and Midway USA (www.midwayusa.com ) would be good outfits to search for loaded black powder ammo. It is very expensive, which is why I load my own.

As far as problems you might run into, there really shoudln't be any serious trouble. The Colt SAA was made to run with black powder. If the commercial ammo has plenty of soft lube in the bullet grooves, everything should run just fine. Or, you can also find ammo loaded with black powder substitutes that shouldn't foul your guns enough to matter during the course of a match.

I bring some rags, a small bottle of water, and a small bottle of oil when I shoot black powder at a match. Black powder fouling wipes right off with a little water, so if my revolvers start to feel "reluctant", I wipe off the cylinder faces and cylinder pins with a slightly damp cloth, and then re-oil while at the unloading table. It takes less time to do it then it does to write it, and I rarely need to do it, anyway. Some guys swab their bores as well, but I've never needed to.

I cast my own bullets, Mav Dutchman Big Lube 44s, and lube the groove with a mix of beeswax, crisco, and canola oil. If you don't want to cast your own when you start reloading, there are folks selling Big Lube Bullets, and Desparado Cowboy Bullets sells a fine selection of bullets that seem to work very very well.

Lots of other folks will no doubt chime in, so I'll yield the floor. Again, welcome, and I hope to see you at a shoot sometime.


North Bender Yesterday, 12:04 AM Post #6

SASS# Guest

Joined: 01/26/07



Thanks Jailhouse Jim, you've led me down the path. I realize loading is the way to go - and this will start me down that process. I look forward to it.

I'm not sure what Chili Ron was trying to convey to me about rules, perhaps if he would like to clarify any gaff I've made I would try to avoid such in the future.


North Bender Yesterday, 12:06 AM Post #7

SASS# Guest

Joined: 01/26/07



You guys are quick! My thanks to El Cid and Wampum Goode are sent.


Wills Point Pete, SASS#68127 Yesterday, 12:15 AM Post #8

SASS# #68127
Texas Ten Horns
Joined: 10/24/05
From: Texas



Your USFA will be just fine with BP ammo. I'm told that some need a little relief in the barrel cylinder gap to shoot long strings. If yours does, it is very inexpensive for a gunsmith to do it.
You didn't mention the cartridge your '94 is chambered for, some are easier to maintain accuracy over long strings than others. Please note that only the pistol caliber '94s are legal for main match use.
Ten-X sells BP ammo, too. I believe it is a sub but is still smokey. There are a couple of others, too. Still, the only real way to afford shooting black powder ammo is to be a Rockefeller or to roll your own.
Welcome aboard.


North Bender Yesterday, 12:19 AM Post #9

SASS# Guest

Joined: 01/26/07



Well, the M94 is .30-.30, and not set up for the sport, but it did get me in touch with my inner Have Gun Will Travel, and the next thing I knew I'm into SAAs.


Cooleemee Edd, SASS No. 68719 Yesterday, 01:42 AM Post #10

SASS# 68719

Joined: 10/21/06
From: Currently, Baku, Azerbaijan



Well, the .30/30 won't work for CAS. Must be chambered for a pistol caliber. Lots of them out there and someone will loan you one at any match you attend until you get your own. Download that SASS rulebook from the SASS site and read it thoroughly. I've read it several times. Haven't bothered to print it out, though. When you join SASS, you'll get the rulebook mailed to you.

Welcome!!!


I. Ben Robbed Yesterday, 02:16 AM Post #11

SASS# 66342
Single Action Shootists of Hawaii
Joined: 06/27/05
From: Honlolulu, HI



He's right. .30-30 is a no-no. smile.gif You can find em in pistol calibers tho, I have one in .45 LC.

As for loaded BP ammo, you can also try Buffalo Arms, their prices are reasonable. Loading your own is really the only way to go though. Too expensive otherwise.


Lou Graham, # 26112 Yesterday, 08:19 AM Post #12

SASS# 26112
Congress of Rough Riders & CT. Valley Bushwackers
Joined: 06/9/02
From: Terryville, CT.



Welcome to the fire!
A 30-30 is a great gun for side matches, but not legal for main match as some others pointed out. Main match uses pistol caliber rifles only. We bring out the rifle calibers for side matches.

It's also not good with BP. The introduction of the 30-30 caliber roughly coincided with the introduction of smokeless powder. Close enough to save the 30-30 from extinction because it's a very unsatifactory BP round.

I am what might be called a die-hard BP shooter. I have one CAS gun that is not a BP gun and that's my 30-30 Marlin. It's so good, I have to over look the non-BP thing.

For your new pistol, the commercially loaded BP is usually a sub -- some is "real" BP and you should ask what's in there before you buy. That way when you decide to start making your own, you will know what worked best in your guns so you can replicate it at home.

Reloading either smokeless or BP is dangerous if you don't pay attention or don't know what you are doing. A good place to start is the Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook. Ignore the title. It is a soup-to-nuts of the whole process, including history and a really enjoyable read besides. It will give you an understanding of the process, special words/terms and pitfalls in making your own ammo.

Shooting BP, reloading BP, cleaning up after shooting BP, taking care of BP guns is all a great deal of fun. If it was very difficult, I would not have been able to learn how to do it. biggrin.gif You just have to learn the safety rules and pay attention to what you are doing. The smell, the smoke, the flames and the BOOM are why we do this. Just ask the Soot Lords & Soot Sisters for some advice or help as you get going and we will chime in. Most of what I learned came from BP shooters in my club and the help from pards on this and another cowboy forum. We love getting "converts" to the Darkside biggrin.gif


Capt. George Baylor SASS#24287L Yesterday, 09:55 AM Post #13

SASS# 24287
Mickey Mouse Club, Club Med, 2nd Place Club, South East Asian War Games
Joined: 07/26/99
From: Texas by God!



Getting Started In Cowboy Action Shooting

Black Powder Substitutes for Dummies

Your best bet for loaded BP ammunition is either Great Basin Cartridge Company or Ten-X Ammunition Co..

They both use an easy to live with BP substitute, American Pioneer Powder. Both companies support SASS.

Additionally Goex makes ammunition with Goex Pinnacle, a substitute like APP, as well as real black powder. Again, it's easier to live with when starting out. It's available from Powder, Inc. They're good people, too.

All three companies make excellent ammunition. Choosing among them boils down to price and availability. Good luck. WARNING: CAS IS ADDICTIVE AND HAS BEEN SHOWN TO PROVOKE STRANGE BEHAVIOR IN GROWN MEN AND WOMEN.


Snake River Cowboy, sass#34984 Yesterday, 12:25 PM Post #14

SASS# 34984
The Shadow Riders
Joined: 05/21/01
From: Greenport, NY



QUOTE(North Bender @ Jan 27 2007, 12:04 AM)
Thanks Jailhouse Jim, you've led me down the path. I realize loading is the way to go - and this will start me down that process. I look forward to it.

I'm not sure what Chili Ron was trying to convey to me about rules, perhaps if he would like to clarify any gaff I've made I would try to avoid such in the future.






CR confused me with his post also.

Don't totally rule out BP in the 30/30. I made some with 777 and they worked fine in my Marlin 336rc. It has Ballard rifling.


North Bender Yesterday, 12:51 PM Post #15

SASS# Guest

Joined: 01/26/07



Thanks again everyone. I knew this was the place.

I don't know if I sidetracked the black powder discussion by mentioning the M94 - it was never my intention to use it to shoot CAS; I just mentioned it to say it drove me back to my cowboy roots.

But it was pretty successful to ask about black powder on this forum.


Sergeant Smokepole #29248L Yesterday, 06:26 PM Post #16

SASS# 29248L
Bristol Plains Pistoleros
Joined: 07/14/00
From: Chicago, Republik of Illinois



North Bender,
Send me a PM with all your questions and I will guide you to The Darkside. I will answer any and all questions broken down so as not to cause any confusion.


SGT John Chapman Yesterday, 06:41 PM Post #17

SASS# Guest

Joined: 02/16/03
From: North Platte, Nebwaski



Welcome Sir,.....

Adding to the above,.......
BP is great but shoot ya a little smokeless first,.......you also will learn,....unless your made of money, to load your own Black Ammo,......Black is completely different as far as the cleanup of the guns, cleaning cases, lubes,....
45 Colts are Expensive loaded with Smokeless let alone Black,.......


Darkside Help........

http://wwwbrimstonep...eroscombpforum2

This post has been edited by SGT John Chapman: Yesterday, 06:48 PM


Utah Bob #35998 Yesterday, 06:56 PM Post #18

SASS# 35998
Windy Gap Regulators
Joined: 01/22/01
From: Lazy Bob Ranch, SW Colorado



Smokepole knoweth the true way. Listen unto him and all will be made clear my son. He will not steereth you wrong. wink.gif

#2 FC

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Posted 28 January 2007 - 12:21 AM

SASS Wire Forum > SASS Forums > SASS Wire


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BP Cartridges

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Dutch McCrae SASS #45410 Jan 13 2007, 08:51 AM Post #1

SASS# 45410
Bend of Trail; Blue Ridge Regulators; BOLD
Joined: 09/2/05
From: Virginny



How inportant is it to use magnum primers when reloading BP cartridges?

Been hearing some talk about it. I shoot .38's and I'm using either Goex or Lidu BP. Have not had a problem with 'em going off with regular primers. Can someone set me straight on this?

Dutch


Goody, SASS #26190 Jan 13 2007, 08:52 AM Post #2

SASS# 26190
Lone Star Frontier Shooting Club, Comanche Valley Vigilantes, Badlands Bar 3
Joined: 11/18/99
From: Farmers Branch, Texas 75234



I don't. No problems so far.


Dick Dastardly SASS #45219 Jan 13 2007, 08:58 AM Post #3


Joined: 04/13/02



Black powder is easy to lite. Standard primers will do your work. If you can get 'em cheeper, magnums are ok, but they won't increase yer performance.

FWIW, I'm hearin' of some very fine long range (1000 yard) shooters that are usin' standard large pistol primers in their long range rifles with Holy Black.

Use what ya got and look for best price when you buy.

DD-DLoS


Bull Skinner Jan 13 2007, 08:59 AM Post #4

SASS# 32372
Effingham County Sportsman Club CAS
Joined: 09/2/02
From: The Wild Prairies of Southern Illinois



Have been loadin' BP cartridge for years and have never used magnum primers.

I can't fathom why you'd need 'em since BP is a lot easier to ignite than smokeless and you don't need it for them except for a few slow slow burners.


Utah Bob #35998 Jan 13 2007, 09:04 AM Post #5

SASS# 35998
Windy Gap Regulators
Joined: 01/22/01
From: Lazy Bob Ranch, SW Colorado



Never used 'em.


Hoedown Hal SASS#27657 Jan 13 2007, 09:38 AM Post #6

SASS# 27657

Joined: 01/18/02
From: Mid-Michigan



What DD said.


Hawg Haggen Jan 13 2007, 09:48 AM Post #7

SASS# 73545

Joined: 07/18/06
From: Heidelberg Ms.



Ya might need magnum primers if ya use Pyrodex pellets since they're harder to ignite. Standard primers should work for loose powder of any kind.


Oklahomabound Jan 13 2007, 10:38 AM Post #8

SASS# 66347L
Indian Territory SASS
Joined: 06/2/05
From: Indian Territory, Creek Nation



I shoot Goex Ffg and 777 and use "large pistol" for .45 Colt and "large rifle" for .40-60 and .45-70 cartridges...
I use Federal primers 'cause, IMHO, they light off easier (you might assume that the .45 Colt Marlin has an action job including trigger pull and hammer drop).
Have had no issues through the last 4000 rounds or so....


Adirondack Jack, SASS #53440 Jan 13 2007, 10:44 AM Post #9

SASS# 53440
Circle K Regulators
Joined: 08/24/03



If ya ever saw a primer lit off outside of a gun, ya'd see that even a LP primer makes a BIG flash of flame. BP will light off if the primer does, period. If it don't, ya got contaiminated powder.


Capt. George Baylor SASS#24287L Jan 13 2007, 10:48 AM Post #10

SASS# 24287
Mickey Mouse Club, Club Med, 2nd Place Club, South East Asian War Games
Joined: 07/26/99
From: Texas by God!



Dawg Nose, of Goex, recommends standard primers with Goex Cowboy.

Mike Venturino likes mag primers and did a whole accuracy test with various ones and said CCI Mags were more accurate. So if you're shooting at 1000 yard targets, you might consider them. If you're shooting at 1000 yard targets with a SASS Main Match weapon you're overly optimistic. smile.gif


Rowdy Yates, SASS #141 Jan 13 2007, 11:00 AM Post #11


SASS# 141
Brimstone Pistoleros Territorial Gov
Joined: 07/25/99



In addition to what Captain Baylor said, and depending on other loading factors it is possible that Mag primers may give you a cleaner burn and a bit less fouling over a string of shooting.
In other words you may be able to keep a good group longer without cleaning with Mags.
I've always used standard primers for CAS.


Buffalo Dick, SASS #12880 Jan 13 2007, 11:00 AM Post #12

SASS# 12880
Big Irons Rangers, Miami Valley Cowboys, Scioto Territory Desperados, Big Rock, Deer Creek
Joined: 01/22/00
From: Centerville, Ohio



Actually, primers can make a difference. The tests by Venturino that Captain Baylor mentioned were done using a Colt in a Ransom Rest and showed a very significant difference in group size between different primers. If all you need is a boom and "close enough for CAS accuracy" any primer will do. If you recognize that superior grouping is a benefit and may mean the difference between an edge hit and a miss, experimenting with primers and other load developement may be worthwhile.


#3 FC

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Posted 28 January 2007 - 12:23 AM

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Ballistol..never used it before, How many ways can one use it ?

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Dee Mak Jack, SASS #55905 Jan 1 2007, 07:55 AM Post #1

SASS# 55905
McLean County Peacemakers
Joined: 05/16/04
From: Morton, Illinois



I've never used Ballistol but have seen many comments on the wire concerning its use, especially for BP. I will be using 777 and am wondering if this is what I should be using when cleaning up guns after firing 777. Any and all comments about this product and uses for it would be appreciated. When I order, should I get both the liquid and spray ? Thanks in advance.

DMJ


Lt. I. M. Lost, SASS # 53627 Life Jan 1 2007, 08:19 AM Post #2

SASS# 53627 L
Altar Valley Pistoleros
Joined: 11/8/03
From: Tucson, AZ



I've recently started to use Ballistol as I shoot Pyrodex in my .44 Mag and SXS. I put a little in a bottle of water and put my spent brass in that while on the range, and then simply rinse out the brass when I get home and then put it into the brass cleaner. For the pistols, (Ruger SS Bisley Vaqueros), I put a little Ballistol into a plastic tub and then put in about 3 inches of hot water (enough to cover the pistol), remove the grips and put the pistol and cylinder into the water. I use a bore brush to scrub out the bore and cylinder, then use a single patch to finish things off. I then dry the pistol and run a bore snake with a little ballistol on the end next to the string through the bore and the cylinder and all is will.

For the rifle, I have a Marlin, and put the bolt, lever screw, and ejector spring into the water and scrub them out with a nylon tooth brush, dry them off and spritz the extractor with the spray Blastol. I run a bore brush through the bore of the rifle by holding the muzzle over the tub of water and running the brush into the water and then pulling it back through the bore several times. Then I run the wet patch through it followed by the bore snake.

I shoot platic wads in the shotgun, so I spray several shots of windex and water into the bore and let it set for a few minutes, then I ram a patch that has a little 50/50 Ballistol and water on it through the bore and out comes the black residue. I follow up with the good ol' bore snake with a little Ballistol on the string end.

For the little nooks and crannies, I use a Q-tip with Ballistol and water.

It works great!

Good luck,

Lt. I. M. Lost


Lou Graham, # 26112 Jan 1 2007, 11:05 AM Post #3

SASS# 26112
Congress of Rough Riders & CT. Valley Bushwackers
Joined: 06/9/02
From: Terryville, CT.



I have the big pump bottle. Put some in a smaller container with a pump, and I have a handy container that fits in the guncart.

I really hate the way that stuff smells, but it does work. Good for a quickie clean between stages, good for spiffing up yur boots before the dinner, good for wiping down the guns if they have gotten wet, good for about anything except putting it on your ice cream. biggrin.gif


Cusz M. Dutch SASS Life 55326 Jan 1 2007, 11:20 AM Post #4


Joined: 01/20/04



Lt. you are doing way to much work. Just wipe down the out side of the frames, bolts and lever of your guns. A used windex bottle with a mixture of almost any kind of will work for cleaning the inside of the barrel should. If you check on the wire, most are using 5:1 to 10:1 of the balistol. I just dump what I think it needs and try for equal parts of Balistol, hydrogen proxide and rubbing alchol.

I quess the bottom line is Balistol works for BP or one of the sub and it does not seem to matter what ratio you use.

This post has been edited by Cusz M. Dutch SASS Life 55326: Jan 1 2007, 11:21 AM


Chicken lips, SASS #59179 Jan 1 2007, 11:28 AM Post #5

SASS# 59179
Poulsbo Pistoleros
Joined: 09/3/06
From: Western Washington



For Triple 7 clean up, just plain hot water does the trick for me. But, I use Ballistol to lube between stages for when I'm shooting Triple 7, Pyrodex, or Goex true Blackpowder. Ballistol and water keeps fouling soft and still protects the metal. After clean up, I rinse with REALLY hot water, dry everything off inside and out and then apply a light coating of Ballistol inside and out. It works great and protects the metal from rust and lubricates the moving parts.
For Muzzleloading, I use it to lubricate my patches and use Ballistol and water mix (1:2) to swab the bore when shooting Goex or pyrodex (Triple 7 doesn't seem to foul much or need the occasional swabbing).
Ballistol comes in a can and in an aerosol spray. I have both and find each of them very useful for the different application required in the different phases of shooting, cleanup, and after cleanup protection. Midway has the 16 oz. can on sale this month!
Enjoy!
Chicken Lips


William Waddy Jan 1 2007, 11:39 AM Post #6

SASS# 48486
Dixie Desperados
Joined: 10/14/03
From: St. George, Utah Territory



Ballistol works great as an antiseptic for open wounds. I put it on any cut or scrape that i get and it heals up really fast. No kidding.



Uncle Jim, SASS #3879 Jan 1 2007, 11:47 AM Post #7


Joined: 01/3/01



Ballistol is oil and can be used anywhere you would use any other brand of oil for lubrication or rust protection. It is emulsifiable in water and makes good "moose milk" for cleaning. There was once a scare that it would fade case colors but I have not heard anything on that recently.


Reno Chips # 18130 Jan 1 2007, 01:05 PM Post #8

SASS# 18130

Joined: 07/9/01



It is great stuff. It cleans well, easy to use. Works great.



Sergeant Smokepole #29248L Jan 1 2007, 03:20 PM Post #9

SASS# 29248L
Bristol Plains Pistoleros
Joined: 07/14/00
From: Chicago, Republik of Illinois



I heard tell that some used it as salad dressin'. I cain't personally vouch for it though........


Rawhide Rio #22927 Jan 1 2007, 03:43 PM Post #10

SASS# 22927
Rio Salado
Joined: 03/24/01
From: Apache Junction, Arizona Territory



QUOTE(Lou Graham @ # 26112,Jan 1 2007, 09:05 AM)
I have the big pump bottle. Put some in a smaller container with a pump, and I have a handy container that fits in the guncart.

I really hate the way that stuff smells, but it does work. Good for a quickie clean between stages, good for spiffing up yur boots before the dinner, good for wiping down the guns if they have gotten wet, good for about anything except putting it on your ice cream. biggrin.gif






I have heard that it is quite odoriferous, just how odoriferous is it?



Sergeant Smokepole #29248L Jan 1 2007, 03:45 PM Post #11

SASS# 29248L
Bristol Plains Pistoleros
Joined: 07/14/00
From: Chicago, Republik of Illinois



If'n ya like licorice, it aint bad.....


Chicken lips, SASS #59179 Jan 1 2007, 03:51 PM Post #12

SASS# 59179
Poulsbo Pistoleros
Joined: 09/3/06
From: Western Washington



Its not so much odiferous as much as it has a distinctive aroma. I won't sniff the open can, but its hardly noticeable on a cloth for wipe down. If you don't like the smell, just don't sniff it!
Chicken Lips



Shakey Shooter, SASS# 33849 Jan 1 2007, 04:56 PM Post #13

SASS# #33849L
BIG HORN VIGILANTES T.G./ BUFFALO RANGE RIDERS/ MAGDALENA TRAIL DRIVERS
Joined: 04/19/05
From: DEEP IN THE KITTY LITTER, NMT



I mix up some moose milk and use ONE patch for bore and cy/ chambers on both SAA's or Navy's. Wipe the outside and let dry. It is clean and oiled for storage or use. You can speed up the drying with a cheap hair dryer if you need to put them away quickly. Same with the rifle and shotguns.

A very little goes a long way.


Can you spell stinkey socks blink.gif

This post has been edited by Shakey Shooter, SASS# 33849: Jan 1 2007, 04:58 PM


Colorado Coffinmaker Jan 1 2007, 06:16 PM Post #14

SASS# 14513

Joined: 12/31/02
From: Western Pennsylvania, Keystone of Freedom




May I be the dissenter today??? Just my day to be contrary. Balistol may make a fine leather dressing. I don't recommend it for cleaning or lubeing guns. It has a nasty propensity to become a very SLICK soap like substance when wet or dampened. In high humidity or light rain, it can make a gun grip you can't hang on to. When water is added, it gets slicker than snot on a door knob. It's carrying agent is water. Water is not recommended for the internal working parts of guns.
Best mix I've found for cleaning BP guns is soap and water, then a thorough dry, or equal parts Murphys oil soap, hydrogen peroxide and alcohol. The alcohol serves as a drying agent, followed my a real lubricant. My preference for lubricant/cleaner is Break Free. A spray can of Break Free will also serve to keep the BP shooter running freely during a match.
Black powder in and of itself is not corrosive. It's residue traps moisture, which causes rust. ALL the BP subs are chemically corrosive without adding any moisture. I have had brass guns come into the shop two - three days after a match, shot with BP subs and the carrier block was trying to fuse to the receiver. BP subs need to be cleaned immediately. Hydrogen Peroxide helps neutralize the corrosive elements of subs.
While Balistol may have applications and in some areas, fair results, it is not the "be all, end all" it is often touted to be. There are better alternatives.

Coffinmaker


Dick Dastardly SASS #45219 Jan 1 2007, 09:14 PM Post #15


Joined: 04/13/02



Howdy Colorado Coffinmaker,

I take the grips off my RVs and dunk 'em in a Moosemilk spa. Then, I pull 'em out, pull a boresnake thru and blow 'em out with compressed air. I put the grips back on and put 'em away.

No problems, no rust, just nice clean guns.

Water and Ballistol are friends. Ballistol remains behind when the water's gone and leaves a nice protected film. Great stuff in my experience.

For absolute best protection from rust I also recommend Boeshield T-9. It's a Boeing product and does as good or better than anything else I've ever found for rust proofing.

I shoot only Holy Black for all my SASS matches.

DD-DLoS


Handsum Jack Hammer #67923 Jan 1 2007, 09:59 PM Post #16

SASS# 67923
Hammer Clan, BOLD #719, Darkside WartHog, SCORRS
Joined: 07/26/05
From: Lynnwood, WA



I also shoot 777 in my cartridge guns, amd I lub ethe guns after the match with ballistol. But what I have founs is that the 77 is really really soluble in water and HOT water wil clean the stuf so fast you won't believe it.

I always have a water bottle or two with me on the range. When my pistols start to foul and turn hard I get my water bottle and slosh some water over the cylinder area of the gun and spin the the thing a coupleof revolutions and, [/B][/I]Viola!, slicks that puppy right up in about five seconds.

HJH


slate mike sass#29204 Jan 1 2007, 10:07 PM Post #17

SASS# 29204

Joined: 01/9/01
From: Granville,NY



I like Ballistol for everything Cowboy.Moosemilk,1/2 and 1/2,straight up-BP,subs or smokeless.I've gotten to enjoy the distinct aroma,but have to keep the shop door shut when in use as the rest of the family is in total disagreement with my nasal preferences.For benchrest shooting,I confess to using Butch's Bore Shine and more modern lubes.


Big John Denny, SASS #64775 Jan 1 2007, 10:27 PM Post #18

SASS# 64775
Mule Camp Cowboys & Doc Holliday's Immortals
Joined: 03/30/05
From: Stockbridge, Georgia



At N-SSA matches I know guys that brush their teeth with it. It leaves a shinny smile.


Colorado Coffinmaker Jan 1 2007, 10:46 PM Post #19

SASS# 14513

Joined: 12/31/02
From: Western Pennsylvania, Keystone of Freedom



Dick Dastardly,

Funny you should mention Bosshield t-9. Originally, after leaving the military, I became a professional Woodworker and Cabinet maker. Used Boshield almost exclusively to rust proof and lubricate my machine tools. Incredible stuff. Woodworkers don't tolerate lubricants that get into wood products.

Recently, on the wire, someone mentioned using Boshield on guns. It may even have been YOU!!! For whatever reason, I had never thought of using it on guns. I do now. Boshield not only rust proofs, it dries into an incredible dry lube that not only does not attract moisture, it doesn't attract dust, and it prevents common carbon fouling from gun powder from forming a tight bond to metal surfaces. I've been experimenting with it for a couple of weeks. Sears carries it in open stock and it isn't really expensive. It really works wonders for the moving parts of an action.

I still don't like Balistol. Probably personal, but, don't like it. I've had better results with "other" stuff. I do admit I don't shoot a lot of black. When I do, I use my above formula. Creature of habit. My instructors in Smith School (Military Armory) taught Break Free. Can't shake it. Wonderful stuff. Bit tough on the arm pitts, and not much for Cologne, but one of the best firearm lubricants/cleaners there is.

Coffinmaker (Creature of Habit!!)




Grizzly Adams #3674 Jan 2 2007, 01:01 AM Post #20

SASS# 3674
Magdalena Trail Drivers
Joined: 04/2/00
From: Magdalena, New Mexico



I use Ballistol, but NEVER mixed with water! "Moose milk" is death! mad.gif
IMHO! smile.gif

I shoot only APP and I clean up with Windex with vinager, or hot water. When things are DRY, I lube with full strength Ballistol in the bores - not on the outside! smile.gif

For smokeless, you can't beat Breakfree! Hmmmm, Boshield.......


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Posted 28 January 2007 - 12:26 AM

Black Powder Shotgun loads

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Spittoon O'Tool, SASS #62053 Jan 2 2007, 02:48 PM Post #1


Joined: 12/13/04



I've been loading up some 12 gauge rounds with BP substitute 777. The powder takes up so much room that I can only squeeze 7/8 ounce of 7.5 shot in the top. I know it's a matter of the wad but I couldn't find any that would work better at the local Sportsman Warehouse. Does 7/8 ounces fired out of a coach gun have enough moxie to knock a big standing plate over?


Charlie Harley, #14153 Jan 2 2007, 02:58 PM Post #2

SASS# 14153

Joined: 08/11/99
From: Cincinnati, OH



"Knockdown Power" is a combination of velocity, pattern density, and total shot charge. 7/8oz of shot is more than adequate if your pattern is tight enough to get most of it on the target.

You don't say how much 777 you're using and SASS rules preclude load data from being discussed in detail. Only being able to fit 7/8oz in a 12 gauge round is odd. Send me a PM and we can talk more if you want.


Capt. George Baylor SASS#24287L Jan 2 2007, 03:06 PM Post #3

SASS# 24287
Mickey Mouse Club, Club Med, 2nd Place Club, South East Asian War Games
Joined: 07/26/99
From: Texas by God!



See:
Black Powder Substitutes for Dummies, p. 3

It sounds like you're using too much powder or a REALLY tall wad. The Winchester WAA12R (Red) allows PLENTY of powder. With 777 the WT12 (Orange) allows plenty of powder.


Spittoon O'Tool, SASS #62053 Jan 2 2007, 03:46 PM Post #4


Joined: 12/13/04



QUOTE(Capt. George Baylor SASS#24287L @ Jan 2 2007, 03:06 PM)
See:
Black Powder Substitutes for Dummies, p. 3

It sounds like you're using too much powder or a REALLY tall wad. The Winchester WAA12R (Red) allows PLENTY of powder. With 777 the WT12 (Orange) allows plenty of powder.







Hi Captain,

I was using your recommendation except the wad was a WAA12 (white). Can't find the WT12 (Orange). p.s. really appreciated the info found in your article, thanks.


Capt. George Baylor SASS#24287L Jan 2 2007, 04:17 PM Post #5

SASS# 24287
Mickey Mouse Club, Club Med, 2nd Place Club, South East Asian War Games
Joined: 07/26/99
From: Texas by God!



Well, I have a ton of Claybuster copies of the WAA12R, and I've switched to WT12. Deals can be had on the WAA12R copies.


Trueno del Diablo, SASS#22364L Jan 2 2007, 04:20 PM Post #6

SASS# 22364L
Tri-County Gun Club
Joined: 08/18/99
From: Stumptown, Orygun (the wet side)



Not sure what case or how much powder you're using, but the only way I've found to get a full 3 drams of powder and 1 1/8 oz of shot in a target type (Premier or AA) hull is to use steel shotcups. Specifically the LBC cups produced by Ballistics Products and cut to fit a 2 3/4" shell with a folded crimp. No wad column, plenty of room.
You can also go to a Federal Gold Medal Hull as they have more capacity than the Winchester or Remingtons. It won't get you to a standard load with but will buy you some more room.

Yeah, and what Harley said, too. If it patterns tight enough 7/8 oz is plenty.

This post has been edited by Trueno del Diablo, SASS#22364L: Jan 2 2007, 04:22 PM


Driftwood Johnson, SASS #38283 Jan 2 2007, 05:14 PM Post #7

SASS# 38283
Anyplace that is foolish enough to let me shoot.
Joined: 04/22/01
From: Land of the Pilgrims



Howdy

I have no idea how much 777 you're putting in there, but I can tell you that it is better to err on the side of less powder and more shot, than to load more powder and less shot. If you put in too much powder for any particular amount of shot you are more likely to blow holes in your patterns than if you put in a little bit more shot and a little bit less powder. Less powder is less likely to blow holes in your pattern. Did I say that right? Anyhoo, I usually load in 1 1/8 ounces of shot, but less than 2 1/2 drams of powder. Knocks down everything I point it at. Hope I didn't get too specific. Of course I'm talking about real BP, but the idea should be the same with the subs.


Grizzly Adams #3674 Jan 2 2007, 09:05 PM Post #8

SASS# 3674
Magdalena Trail Drivers
Joined: 04/2/00
From: Magdalena, New Mexico



QUOTE(Capt. George Baylor SASS#24287L @ Jan 2 2007, 03:06 PM)
See:
Black Powder Substitutes for Dummies, p. 3

It sounds like you're using too much powder or a REALLY tall wad. The Winchester WAA12R (Red) allows PLENTY of powder. With 777 the WT12 (Orange) allows plenty of powder.






Capt. I have not been able to find any WAA12R Red wads, and now my local supplier tells me that Winchester has discontinued the red wad. Is there a substitute for it? sad.gif


KC Colt, SASS #69404 Jan 2 2007, 09:51 PM Post #9

SASS# 69404
Powder Creek Cowboys, Free State Rangers
Joined: 12/24/04
From: Kansas



QUOTE(Grizzly Adams #3674 @ Jan 2 2007, 09:05 PM)
Capt. I have not been able to find any WAA12R Red wads, and now my local supplier tells me that Winchester has discontinued the red wad. Is there a substitute for it? sad.gif







Claybusters makes the replacement wad.

http://www.midsouths...u=00072CB113812




William Waddy Jan 2 2007, 10:06 PM Post #10

SASS# 48486
Dixie Desperados
Joined: 10/14/03
From: St. George, Utah Territory



According to Claybusters (www.claybusters.com), the following mail order companies carry their wads. The Claybuster replacement for the Winchester red wad is CB1138-12. This wad will allow you to make up a load with plenty of bp or sub (around 4 to 4.3cc) and 1 to 1-1/8 oz. of shot.

Gamaliel Shooting Supply
P.O. Box 156 Hwy 100
Gamaliel, KY 42140
800-356-6230
www.gamaliel.com

Graf & Sons
Hwy 54 South
Mexico, MO 65265
800-531-2666
www.grafs.com

Cabela's
3200 Road 101
Sidney, NE 69160
800-237-4444
www.cabelas.com

Recob's Enterprises
975 19th Street
Prairie du Sac, WI 53578
800-359-4571
www.recobstargetshop.com

Midsouth Shooters Supply
770 Economy Dr
Clarksville, TN 37043
800-272-3000
www.midsouthshooterssupply.com



Willie Wheelgun Jan 2 2007, 10:15 PM Post #11

SASS# 43902
Rucus
Joined: 03/16/02
From: Soos Creek, Washington Territory



I believe you are blowing holes in your pattern. That is the spot you are aiming for! I loaded some shells with 777 and 1 1/8 oz of shot over WW red wads which I believe Midway and Cabella's have available. At one stage we were required to shoot 6 shotgun rounds at one target. I was shooting my Chink double with the 777 loads. Later, I thought I had broken my hand as I was stroking the triggers to pick some time and the recoil didn't bother my fat body, but the trigger guard was smacking my hand with great force.

No, your 777 should get the job done very well. Get the WW red wads. They are available. 1 1/8 oz shot will get the job done, in fact I have fun shooting trap out of a coach gun against regular trap shooters. Try it sometime. You will feel pretty good after.

Willie


Dick Dastardly SASS #45219 Jan 2 2007, 10:24 PM Post #12


Joined: 04/13/02



I'll bet they really BOOM tho. .

DD-DLoS


Spittoon O'Tool, SASS #62053 Jan 3 2007, 09:31 AM Post #13


Joined: 12/13/04



QUOTE(William Waddy @ Jan 2 2007, 10:06 PM)
According to Claybusters (www.claybusters.com), the following mail order companies carry their wads. The Claybuster replacement for the Winchester red wad is CB1138-12. This wad will allow you to make up a load with plenty of bp or sub (around 4 to 4.3cc) and 1 to 1-1/8 oz. of shot.

Gamaliel Shooting Supply
P.O. Box 156 Hwy 100
Gamaliel, KY 42140
800-356-6230
www.gamaliel.com

Graf & Sons
Hwy 54 South
Mexico, MO 65265
800-531-2666
www.grafs.com

Cabela's
3200 Road 101
Sidney, NE 69160
800-237-4444
www.cabelas.com

Recob's Enterprises
975 19th Street
Prairie du Sac, WI 53578
800-359-4571
www.recobstargetshop.com

Midsouth Shooters Supply
770 Economy Dr
Clarksville, TN 37043
800-272-3000
www.midsouthshooterssupply.com









I ordered the right size wads. Thanks William and all you other lads!


JoyTBrew, SASS #42068 Jan 3 2007, 10:05 AM Post #14

SASS# 42068

Joined: 07/5/03
From: Scottsburg, VA



QUOTE(Spittoon O'Tool @ SASS #62053,Jan 2 2007, 03:48 PM)
I've been loading up some 12 gauge rounds with BP substitute 777. The powder takes up so much room that I can only squeeze 7/8 ounce of 7.5 shot in the top. I know it's a matter of the wad but I couldn't find any that would work better at the local Sportsman Warehouse. Does 7/8 ounces fired out of a coach gun have enough moxie to knock a big standing plate over?






Hi Spittoon O'Tool,

I ain't no BP expert, but I do use both LIDU (real black) and Pyrodex (RS) fer my shotshell. Yep, Claybusters red wads. I got mine direct from a manufacturer distributor, but bought a full case to make the purchase. Yep, over time, a life time, I'll use 'em up. Already did a case of the gray wads fer smokeless and running on the second.

OK, back to yer subject. First off, why ya using Hodgdon T7 fer shotshell? You must realize that it has near 30% more power per volume than other substitutes and certainly more than real black. Real black (LIDU) can be had for about $9 a pound through Powder Inc. Maybe more as I got mine more than a year ago. Then Wally World had an over stock of Pyrodex RS and I got a dozen pounds at $5 a pound, T7 at $9? This year, there was only one pound of each as over stock. sad.gif Fer CAS, I use .9 ounce of #7 1/2 shot over 4.3 CC (LEE dipper set). Takes down any reactive I've done and also the clay fliers. CAS isn't a manly shooting contest for most. I load as little shot and powder as is necessary cause I'm frugal. I shoot replica '97s, '87s, and mule ear SXS that all love the lightest load possible. They reward me with longevity.

If shot gets anymore expensive, there might needs be a change . . .

BTW, I sure hope yer measuring the T7 by volume and not grain weight. It has a weight considerably less per unit volume than real black or other powders. BLACK POWDER IS ALWAYS MEASURED BY VOLUME! Just to shout a bit.

Other cowboys and girls are likely more expert at this stuff. My comments are solely my opinion and personal experiences.







Capt. George Baylor SASS#24287L Jan 3 2007, 11:46 AM Post #15

SASS# 24287
Mickey Mouse Club, Club Med, 2nd Place Club, South East Asian War Games
Joined: 07/26/99
From: Texas by God!



QUOTE(JoyTBrew @ SASS #42068,Jan 3 2007, 10:05 AM)
Fer CAS, I use .9 ounce of #7 1/2 shot over 4.3 CC (LEE dipper set). Takes down any reactive I've done and also the clay fliers. CAS isn't a manly shooting contest for most. I load as little shot and powder as is necessary cause I'm frugal. I shoot replica '97s, '87s, and mule ear SXS that all love the lightest load possible. They reward me with longevity.






Hmm, sounds like a pretty manly load with 777. I know a World Champion and his followers using less than half that volume of Cowboy behind 1-1/8 oz. shot, and they knock down knockdowns better than I do with hotter loads. With 777, 4.3 cc is a HOT load.




Charlie Harley, #14153 Jan 3 2007, 12:10 PM Post #16

SASS# 14153

Joined: 08/11/99
From: Cincinnati, OH



Spittoon,

The SASS PM function has hiccuped and won't let me respond personally, so here are my comments in open forum.

First, check whether you're measuring 39gr 777 by measuring with a powder scale or 39 gr 777 by measuring with a traditional BP volumetric measure. Capt Baylor's site is clear in distiguishing between the two types of measurements. If you are weighing 39 grains of 777 with a scale then you're putting too much volume into the shotshell. That leads to too little shot space.

Second, and it looks like you've fixed it, you weren't using the right wad.

And once your loads are assembled, take them out and pattern them! You might be amazed what you'll find. Blown patterns. Patterns off center. Patterns that are too tight. You wouldn't shoot a rifle without sighting it in. Shotguns are no different.


Grapeshot 8553 Jan 3 2007, 12:40 PM Post #17

SASS# 8553
Jefferson Outlaws
Joined: 06/14/01
From: Aberdeen, MD



Go to fibre and card wads with a dolup of borebutter put in prior to dropping your shot charge. Add a over shot wad and crimp. they will shoot just fine without the plastic build-up.

I use the 4.3 cc Lee dipper with FFg or RS Pyrodex or 777, Circle Fly and/or ALCAN wads and Federal Papper Hulls. smile.gif


SGT John Chapman Jan 3 2007, 01:12 PM Post #18

SASS# Guest

Joined: 02/16/03
From: North Platte, Nebwaski



If you want a large ammount of black in a modern case, for hunting, shock effect, or whatever reason, find ya some empty steel shot cases they have no base wad so you can get more powder in them............ biggrin.gif


Hellgate #3302 L Jan 3 2007, 06:59 PM Post #19

SASS# 3302 L
Wolverton Mtn. Peacekeepers, RUCAS
Joined: 07/25/99
From: Orygun



Mr. o'Toole,

Meanwhile, until you can get a hold of the AA red wads you can shorten the white ones in two ways:
---cut the "legs" entirely out from between the base and the shot cup. This'll give you a pretty short two piece wad about like the AA red (maybe)
---cut the legs through the middle (transversely across) and rotate either half 90 degrees and press them together. This will give you a medium length wad.

As long as your chokes work and give you a tight pattern 7/8oz shot will do the job. I sure see 20ga guns whapping down the fallers just fine. It's the density of the pattern that pushes them over.


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Posted 28 January 2007 - 12:29 AM

Reloading Shotgun Shells, ? about loading BP/BP substitute

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Bobcat Bill, SASS #73382 Jan 26 2007, 08:51 AM Post #1

SASS# 73382

Joined: 10/20/06



Howdy,
New to the sport and I'm thinking I might want to use BP (or one of the modern substitutes) in my guns. I shoot NSSA and assuming my .45 NSSA loads shoot OK in my CAS guns it would make loading for the rifle/main match revolvers simple if I can use the same load for everything (I know, wishfull thinking). I've been loading rifle/pistol for a long time but never reloaded shotgun shells. I would like to get started cheaply and was wondering if the old Lee hand loaders will work and are safe with BP. I know they aren't made any more but they seem to be readily available on e-bay in the neighborhood of $30. Any assistance with loading, including load data for 12 ga. will be apprecciated.


Chicken Coop SASS 5791 Life Jan 26 2007, 09:03 AM Post #2

SASS# 5791 Life

Joined: 01/14/02
From: Pittsburgh, PA



You should have no problem using the Lee hand loader for 12 GA BP shotshells. That device has been around for beaucoup years. The powder dipper supplied with it might be a little small for BP, but a perfect size for smokeless charges. You'll probably need something that can measure BP about 4 to 5 CC's by volume for your 12 GA BP powder charges.

That said, for about $20.00 more you could get a Lee Load All shotshell reloading press from Midway with a primer feed that would make your efforts much easier and make much more consistent reloaded shotshells. I've used one now for 6 - 7 years loading my BP shotshells. I use a plastic dipper rather than the powder dispenser on the Load All when loading BP shotshells. Some pards have reported using the powder dispenser with BP with no problems.

Have fun.

Oh for load data, you can start here: http://www.hodgdon.com/

This post has been edited by Chicken Coop SASS 5791 Life: Jan 26 2007, 09:11 AM


Jess Lookin Jan 26 2007, 09:56 AM Post #3

SASS# 45279

Joined: 08/11/03



if you haven't already read http://www.curtrich....sdummies.3.html


Andrew Quigley SASS #32802 Jan 26 2007, 10:06 AM Post #4

SASS# 32802
North Alabama Regulators
Joined: 02/14/01
From: Killen/ Florence, Alabama



Been using a Lee Loadall II for 6 years now. I use Pyrodex RS because it's readily available to me and BP isn't.
Have always used a muzzleloader brass measurer. Set it up for the proper volume I like and pour it into the shell. Quite simple to load a box in about 15 to 20 minutes.
Check on the classifieds here if ya want one. Had several folks offer to send me one they didn't use anymore when I first got started in CAS. Ebay is another good place for them on the cheap.
Biggest thing I learned was learning to find the right height of my loads. I use plastic wads, with no problem of cleaning afterwards, but for the height I needed I have to trim out part of the middle. But, by chance, I recently found a wad the correct height I need. Good luck to ya. biggrin.gif


Bull Skinner Jan 26 2007, 10:09 AM Post #5

SASS# 32372
Effingham County Sportsman Club CAS
Joined: 09/2/02
From: The Wild Prairies of Southern Illinois



Another way to go is to find a used Mec 600 Jr. They work fine with smokeless and BP. That's what I load both on. I bought mine used for $40.


Driftwood Johnson, SASS #38283 Jan 26 2007, 10:24 AM Post #6

SASS# 38283
Anyplace that is foolish enough to let me shoot.
Joined: 04/22/01
From: Land of the Pilgrims



Howdy

I'd suggest you spend the extra money and get the Lee Loadall rather than the handheld device. I don't use one myself, I took one step up from that and use a MEC Jr, but I think a bench mounted press like the Lee Loadall is a better idea than a hand held tool. Plenty of folks use the Lee machine. It is not built like a tank, but you can still produce good shells with it. If you want something built like a tank, look to the MEC Jr.

You might want to spend another $10 or so and get a set of Lee dippers to go along with it. Invaluable in figuring out powder charges. If you want to go the plastic wad route, many folks have found the Winchester Red Wad to be just about right for 12 Guage BP loads. The height of the red wad is just about right for a good powder charge and a good load of shot. Unfortunately, Winchester announced recently they are discontinuing the venerable red wad, but Claybuster makes a knock off of it.

Claybuster

The Winchester red wad was the WAA12R. The Claybuster equivalent is CB-1138-12

Or you may be able to find a bag of W Red Wads someplace.

If you want a little bit more work, but no plastic fouling, you can buy card and fibre wads from Circle Fly.

Circle Fly

Check out Circle Fly's web page, they have some very good information about loading BP shotshells. You can buy direct from them too, just call them up. I just bought some more wads last week. Excellent service.


Lou Graham, # 26112 Jan 26 2007, 06:40 PM Post #7

SASS# 26112
Congress of Rough Riders & CT. Valley Bushwackers
Joined: 06/9/02
From: Terryville, CT.



As usual, Driftwood is all over it biggrin.gif

Second the motion on the dippers. Can't live without 'em if you load BP. I am fond of my Lee Load All and continue to use it even though there's a MEC Jr. in the gun room. You can carefully drill out the biggest bushing to get to the necessary amount for BP if you don't want to hand-dip.


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Posted 28 January 2007 - 12:32 AM

Is there a BP substitute, that doesn't melt plastic wads?

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long tall texan Dec 20 2006, 07:54 AM Post #1


Joined: 01/6/02



I shoot 12 gauge. If you have a favorite load, I'd be interested, too.

This post has been edited by long tall texan: Dec 20 2006, 07:56 AM


Mason Stillwell # 32017 Dec 20 2006, 08:06 AM Post #2

SASS# 32017
ACSA , Cowtown Cowboy Shooters , Yavapai Rangers , And Payson
Joined: 08/31/00
From: AzT (Hot Country)



About 36 grains of Shutzen 3F and a Winchester Grey wad inside a Win Red hull and fill up the shot cup and crimp.

Dont get no easer than that.

Hope this helps

Mason ;)OOPS almost forgot. This melts less than others but I think they all melt the outside of the case a little.

This post has been edited by Mason Stillwell # 32017: Dec 20 2006, 08:07 AM


William Waddy Dec 20 2006, 09:05 AM Post #3

SASS# 48486
Dixie Desperados
Joined: 10/14/03
From: St. George, Utah Territory



I'm not sure why anybody cares that the wad melts a bit. I use red AA wads and get a light coating of plastic melt in my shotgun barrels, but so what - it still cleans up easier than smokeless.

To clean I either stick the barrel in the sink and run hot water down it (all the plastic and bp residue come sliding out), OR if a sink is unavailable, I stuff a folded and rolled paper towel in the breech end (like a plug) - squirt lots of cheap degrease cleaner, windex, 409, etc., down the point of the barrel - let sit just a minute or so, then ram the paper towel through the barrel. I usually have to repeat this 3 or 4 times to get all the residue, including the plastic, out of the barrel. Then a dry wad and a couple of ballistol-soaked wads and i'm done.

Don't be afraid of the plastic - it's really no big deal.


Mad Mike #8595 Dec 20 2006, 09:55 AM Post #4

SASS# 8595L Regulator
Have Guns--Will travel
Joined: 08/31/99
From: Pahrump, NV



melt?

just look at the amount of flame, shootin BP and subs biggrin.gif

pretty hard ta avoid, I wood think




John Boy Dec 20 2006, 11:03 AM Post #5

SASS# 47228
Jackson Hole Gang - Thumbusters
Joined: 08/6/02
From: South Jersey ... Lat: 39.27N, Lon: 74.65W



LTT, in the Black Powder Reference Library there's a good read (among many others) on loading BP shotshells


Snakebite, SASS #4767L Dec 20 2006, 11:07 AM Post #6

SASS# 4767
Kings River Regulators-5 Dogs Creek
Joined: 08/23/99
From: Down the hill from Kings Canyon Nat. Park.



A nitro card over the powder will stop the melting, however, pushing a long wad of snot out the end of the barrel really isn't much of a problem. wacko.gif

Snakebite

This post has been edited by Snakebite, SASS #4767L: Dec 20 2006, 11:08 AM


Springfield Slim SASS #24733 Dec 20 2006, 11:34 AM Post #7

SASS# 24733
Faultline Shootist Society, Coyote Valley Sharpshooters, Full-time Mr. Mom and part-time leatherworker and bullet caster
Joined: 08/13/01
From: San Jose, Ca



Let the barrels soak with water and push it out with a Tornado brush. Seems the more I shoot my shotguns with Bp the easier the plastic comes out.


Capt. George Baylor SASS#24287L Dec 20 2006, 11:56 AM Post #8

SASS# 24287
Mickey Mouse Club, Club Med, 2nd Place Club, South East Asian War Games
Joined: 07/26/99
From: Texas by God!



QUOTE
Is there a BP substitute, that doesn't melt plastic wads?


No.

Black Powder Substitutes for Dummies


Long Jim Hancock Dec 20 2006, 01:20 PM Post #9

SASS# 47369
Oregon Old West Shooting Society, Klamath Cowboys, Kanawha Valley Regulators
Joined: 03/29/03
From: Oregon Terr.



No... HOWEVER 777 doesn't burn as HOT as real BP and the plastic residue is virtually nil.


Silver Sam, SASS #34718L Dec 20 2006, 01:26 PM Post #10

SASS# 34718
Comanche Valley Vigilantes & Lonestar Frontier Shooting Club
Joined: 10/31/00
From: TEXAS!



The easiest way I've found to remove the plastic residue left after a day of shooting BP is to wet the residue with a cleaning solution and fire a smokeless round downrange...
Its all Gone in a Flash.


Oklahomabound Dec 20 2006, 01:32 PM Post #11

SASS# 66347L
Indian Territory SASS
Joined: 06/2/05
From: Indian Territory, Creek Nation



My sxs is getting easier to clean as Black Powder rounds are put through it... And then into the kitchen sink (wife gets her sink cleaned up real good when I'm done) and pour a tea kettle full of hot boiling water to it. Takes all of 3 minutes... Then run a couple of patches of moose milk till clean and then a light coat of Ballistol.


Capt. George Baylor SASS#24287L Dec 20 2006, 01:35 PM Post #12

SASS# 24287
Mickey Mouse Club, Club Med, 2nd Place Club, South East Asian War Games
Joined: 07/26/99
From: Texas by God!



QUOTE(Long Jim Hancock @ Dec 20 2006, 01:20 PM)
No... HOWEVER 777 doesn't burn as HOT as real BP and the plastic residue is virtually nil.






Put 200 rounds through the gun and make that statement, Jim. wink.gif


Grapeshot 8553 Dec 20 2006, 01:35 PM Post #13

SASS# 8553
Jefferson Outlaws
Joined: 06/14/01
From: Aberdeen, MD



Can't think of any way to stop plastic from melting when using BP. However, when you use brass hulls and after you glue your over shot card over the shot, fill the empty shace with Bore Butter. This will season the bore and the plastic stuff will just slide on out when you spray Balistol and QWater and push a paper towel or TIGHT fitting patch over a jag down the tube.


Wallaby Jack, SASS #44062 Dec 20 2006, 03:00 PM Post #14

SASS# 44062
Single Action Shooting Australia
Joined: 11/7/02
From: Taree, N.S.W., Australia



Cliff Hanger once made the statement that the plastic is not melted, and not from the powder cup,.....
.... rather from the sides of the shotcup and stripped off as the rear end of the shot column obturates outwards under the pressure, seein's the rear end of the shot column gets whacked by the pressure first, and the front end just goes along for the ride, it seems to make sence, ....

And, if you look closely at the fired wads, you'll most likely not find much evidence of melting in the area around the powdercup, but the shotcup sometimes looks a bit different.


.........wbj..


Wallaby Jack, SASS #44062 Dec 20 2006, 03:08 PM Post #15

SASS# 44062
Single Action Shooting Australia
Joined: 11/7/02
From: Taree, N.S.W., Australia



........... seems the only way to not have plastic fouling is to not use plastic ....


'Sides, ya gotta clean the gun anyway.

I just wet the inside of the barrels, and the rest of the gun, with a lanolin (wool fat) based spray and leave it 'til next shoot, then clean it (one paper towel thru each barrel) just before next shoot. >>lazy<<

(why clean it, oil it, and then clean out the oil ?)


The lanolin renders the BP fouling inert and it doesn't seem to harm the guns.
(this is for month to month shooting, not for long term storage)

..............wbj..


Black Hills Blacky #21668 Dec 20 2006, 03:13 PM Post #16


Joined: 11/7/00



I usta put my barrel under the faucet but that wasn't a good idea.
Always seemed to get some around the extractor and had running rust unless you stripped everything, competely dried and lubricated.

Since then I've changed to 1/5 Ballistol to 4/5 Simple Green in a spray bottle. I use this to clean all my BP guns.
Shoot it down the barrels. Run one of them spiral springy thingy brushes through and then a Bore Snake and it's clean as a whistle. Do not skip the spiral springy thing and PULL the Bore Snake through toward you unless you want to toss your shirt out.

I use a grease cookie in my loads and have never had such and easy time of cleaning ANY powder.

Blacky


JoyTBrew, SASS #42068 Dec 20 2006, 03:25 PM Post #17

SASS# 42068

Joined: 07/5/03
From: Scottsburg, VA



HI Long Tall Texan,

Reminds me of long agp about the song " There was a long tall texan that rode a big white mule . . ." Seems like a zillion years ago when I was young and foolish. The young passed, but the foolish is still here.

Anyway, I find that Pyrodex burns a lot cooler than Holy Black (Lidu in my case). Not evidenced by the amount of plastic left in the SXS, but by the melt of the Win AA hull. Only get one load with LIDU and several with Pyrodex. T7 is too expensive for shotshell. Can't beat the Wally World inventory close out price of Pyrodex RS if there's an overstock at yer local store. Last year Pyrodex RS dropped to $5 a pound. Shelves are empty this year around here.

I don't over do the load and use the Lee 4.3 dipper and less than 1 ounce of shot with the red wad. Don't need more for CAS.

This post has been edited by JoyTBrew, SASS #42068: Dec 20 2006, 03:27 PM


Driftwood Johnson, SASS #38283 Dec 20 2006, 03:31 PM Post #18

SASS# 38283
Anyplace that is foolish enough to let me shoot.
Joined: 04/22/01
From: Land of the Pilgrims



QUOTE
........... seems the only way to not have plastic fouling is to not use plastic ....


That's my solution. I load separate card and fibre wads. I don't use modern plastic wads. No melted plastic, just good old honest BP fouling.

To each his own.


Long Jim Hancock Dec 20 2006, 04:02 PM Post #19

SASS# 47369
Oregon Old West Shooting Society, Klamath Cowboys, Kanawha Valley Regulators
Joined: 03/29/03
From: Oregon Terr.



QUOTE(Capt. George Baylor SASS#24287L @ Dec 20 2006, 10:35 AM)
Put 200 rounds through the gun and make that statement, Jim. wink.gif






I agree, but 5-7 stages is all I shoot before cleaning Cap.



quiet jake Dec 20 2006, 05:32 PM Post #20

SASS# sass 34473
OOWSS
Joined: 09/26/00
From: orygun territory



.....brass shells & veggie wads....what's to melt???


Kentucky Tom, SASS # 37471 Dec 21 2006, 02:13 PM Post #21

SASS# 37471L
Bayou Bounty Hunters
Joined: 10/13/02
From: Husser, LA



Take the barrel off, plug each barrel on the chamber end with a 12ga. mop covered with a patch. Sqirt a goodly amount of possom piss (equal volumes of rubbing alcohol, Murphy's oil soap and peroxide) down the open end of the barrels and prop up so the liquid can't get out. Clean your pistols and rifle. Go back to the shotgun and push thru the mop/patch plug. The plastic will come out in a tube and after you have done this a few times, the barrel will be shiney clean. Put a dry patch thru to remove liquid and then a patch soaked in Ballastrol. That's it. All of maybe 10 mins.


John Two Feathers, SASS #58400 Dec 22 2006, 11:08 AM Post #22

SASS# 58400

Joined: 05/30/04
From: On the Banks of the Muddy Yadkin, NC



The amount of plastic "snot" in the bore depends on the powder charge. My "Big Iron" loads leave a lot more residue than my lighter? ones. You got to clean the gun anyhow, real BP or subs. That's part of the fun.

Why not use the real stuff? A lot more smoke, boom and flame.


Capt. George Baylor SASS#24287L Dec 22 2006, 11:22 AM Post #23

SASS# 24287
Mickey Mouse Club, Club Med, 2nd Place Club, South East Asian War Games
Joined: 07/26/99
From: Texas by God!



QUOTE(John Two Feathers @ SASS #58400,Dec 22 2006, 11:08 AM)
Why not use the real stuff? A lot more smoke, No. 777, APP, and Pinnacle all smoke more than wholly black of the same volume load boom Some yes, some no and flame. Yes








J.R. Leadslinger SASS #40767L Dec 22 2006, 12:27 PM Post #24

SASS# 40767LIFE
WOWS, CVV
Joined: 08/9/01
From: Mn



I seem to get less plastic residue from the Remington wads vs Win.


PALADIN #562 Dec 22 2006, 01:35 PM Post #25

SASS# 562

Joined: 02/15/01
From: Livingston, Montana



I load the old way without a plastic wad and I still get melted plastic in the barrel from the hulls melting. The plastic comes out easy just let it soak awhile.


Howdy Doody Dec 22 2006, 02:04 PM Post #26

SASS# 33040
5 Dogs Creek / Rowdy Wranglers
Joined: 08/11/00
From: Doodyville ...USA (Bakersfield CA)



Melting wads and frosting hulls is what it is all about. Great moments in my insignificant life have been when I can stick a wad right to a swinger or plate target. I have been know to stand and admire that happening, while asking if there was any doubt amongst the counters if I had score a hit on the target. biggrin.gif
Fact is, that while I personally won't even dabble with the smokeless stuff any more, you have to brace yourself to the fact that is costs a lot more to shoot BP than smokeless, especially shotgun. You can't ron over to WallyWorld and pick up BP shotgun shells. Pretty much you need to roll your own. Since I like to flick empty hulls out with a vengeance, I load once fired plastic hulls, AAs and STS. After I am done with firing them just once, they hit the trash can. I see that most of mine are frosted and that makes for some drag in my shotguns. I have yet to dabble in all brass hulls. Mostly because I shoot too much to spend the time. Its a Mec for me with the sizing die to start, since I don't know where or what they were shot at. I have a source of AAs that came from those big National championships the skeet and clay folks have back east. I suppose I have a couple thousand once fireds on hand for loading. I used to dumpster dive at shoots, but not too much any more.
You hear so much about BP and yes I try to get as many folks I can interested, but besides being expensive, it is labor intensive. I am not talking about clean up, which isn't too bad, see Capt Baylors school for dummies, but you have to round up stuff, like hulls, wads and of course cases of powder at 25 pounds a whack, cast your own big lube bullets, which means round up wheelweights and on and on. I make it a hobby within a hobby. smile.gif
Merry Christmas

This post has been edited by Howdy Doody: Dec 22 2006, 02:07 PM


Montana Slick, SASS #64415 Dec 22 2006, 04:23 PM Post #27

SASS# 64415

Joined: 11/5/05
From: Under Blue Montana Skies



smile.gif Most of my red wads end up out by the target I use BP ffg .
I treat my barrel's in a special solution that helps to keep em clean. smile.gif


Dick Dastardly SASS #45219 Dec 22 2006, 07:01 PM Post #28


Joined: 04/13/02



Driftwood Pard,

Yer dead nuts on. These pards are in denial. They want "original" loads but want to use that dang modern whipflanger presto fixo zippidah doo da day polycarbonate junk. Then they go on to explain how some oil soap, window cleaner, carburator cleaner, break cleaner, aspirin, rubbing alcohol, airplane gas, swamp water mix makes clean up real easy.

Taint so.

Melted plastic cruds up the bores and is next to impossible to remove. Lots of pards think their bores are clean cuz they're plastic lined. NOT! Use a good bore scope and take another look.

If you want yer scattergun bores to come clean after shootn' Holy Black, use the original natural wads. They're readily available, easy to load, cheeper than the plastic crud and when it comes to cleanup, they make it a pleasure. One quick spritz of moosemilk and a pull of the boresnake and yer good to go. No plastic, no crud, no fouling, jest a nice clean sparkling shiny bore.

Ok, that's my story and I'm stickin' to it.

DD-DLoS


Texas John Critter Dec 22 2006, 09:13 PM Post #29

SASS# 31570
Shoot Straight Cattle Company
Joined: 05/4/00
From: Michigan



QUOTE
cheeper than the plastic crud


Prices from Circle Fly
$13 per 500 for star crimp($5 for 1/8 nitro and $8 for unlubed cush wads)
add $5 for roll crimp(overshot wad)
add $10 for prelubed wads

Claybuster
$8.59 per 500 for plastic

I don't mind ya pushing real BP all the time Dick but at least have the facts correct. biggrin.gif Those unlubed wads soak up a lot of lube, so even if you use homemade, Pearl Lube or some other, it costs something.

Hot water and a boresnake clean the plastic out of my bores one swipe each, your welcome to borescope them any time you like.


Dick Dastardly SASS #45219 Dec 22 2006, 10:28 PM Post #30


Joined: 04/13/02



Ho Texas John,

Ya mite have me on the money issue. I bought a LOT of wads from a pard that had them and wanted to get rid of 'em.

Circle Fly does sell fine products at a very fair price.

The overshot card costs the same regardless of the wad underneath, so that's not part of the equation.

Winchester 12 Gauge Wad WAA12R Red 1 1/8oz to 1 7/8oz- Per 250
*Bag of 250 Designed for the proper rate of collapse. Forms the right shape cup over the powder for proper obturation. Cushions the initial shock, designed to take the bite out of recoil. Petal design protects the shot against flat-spotting, minimizes flyers in the pattern.

$5.99

Looks like Winchester red wads are running about a buck per 500 less than my favorite Circle Fly wads. I stand corrected.

Thanks,

DD-DLoS


Dutch Hollow, 39260 Dec 22 2006, 11:13 PM Post #31


Joined: 12/27/03



Melted wads...I shot trap Thursday night with a Parker brothers 30" sxs damascuss barrels. Used federal paper hulls, 65.0 Pyrodex, 1oz #8 shot and Win AA red wads. Shot a 49 out of 50. Melted wads is an issue, but the pattern is super. Those red wads and paper hulls are made for each other. A killer load for clay targets!!!

Cleaned with soapy water as most all mentioned, but wish for something better.

The brass hulls and cards are fine for other targets, but good patterns need the paper hull and and red wads.

I shoot sporting clays, skeet, and trap with black powder and I cannot find a better load than the one above. But the melted wad is an issue and I lose targets as the fouling builds.


WEEDY SASS#653 Dec 22 2006, 11:16 PM Post #32

SASS# 653
THE COWBOYS, NORCO, CALIFORNIA
Joined: 06/8/01
From: Paramount, California



Or........a good substitute for black that won't melt plastic.......Smokeless!

And I heard a while back that winchester quit making the red wad (good thing I have 5000+ stashed)

FILL UM FULL AND LET UM MELT!! wink.gif

Dutch, roll or fold crimp?

This post has been edited by WEEDY SASS#653: Dec 22 2006, 11:18 PM


Kentucky Tom, SASS # 37471 Dec 23 2006, 12:12 AM Post #33

SASS# 37471L
Bayou Bounty Hunters
Joined: 10/13/02
From: Husser, LA



QUOTE(Dick Dastardly SASS #45219 @ Dec 22 2006, 07:01 PM)
Driftwood Pard,

Yer dead nuts on. These pards are in denial. They want "original" loads but want to use that dang modern whipflanger presto fixo zippidah doo da day polycarbonate junk. Then they go on to explain how some oil soap, window cleaner, carburator cleaner, break cleaner, aspirin, rubbing alcohol, airplane gas, swamp water mix makes clean up real easy.

Taint so.

Melted plastic cruds up the bores and is next to impossible to remove. Lots of pards think their bores are clean cuz they're plastic lined. NOT! Use a good bore scope and take another look.

If you want yer scattergun bores to come clean after shootn' Holy Black, use the original natural wads. They're readily available, easy to load, cheeper than the plastic crud and when it comes to cleanup, they make it a pleasure. One quick spritz of moosemilk and a pull of the boresnake and yer good to go. No plastic, no crud, no fouling, jest a nice clean sparkling shiny bore.

Ok, that's my story and I'm stickin' to it.

DD-DLoS






Stick all you want, tis so. Be glad to show you any time. Plastic all comes out easy.



William Waddy Dec 23 2006, 12:29 AM Post #34

SASS# 48486
Dixie Desperados
Joined: 10/14/03
From: St. George, Utah Territory



I think overshot cards and fiber wads are great, but my shotgun just will not pattern well with that combination (stoeger sxs). I have to use plastic wads to get a good pattern. Still, not really much of a problem at all.

In my CC '87 i've started using shortened plastic hulls with fiber wads and roll crimp - they seem to work well in that gun.



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Posted 28 January 2007 - 12:35 AM

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Lubing Bullets, without special equipment

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Bucky Buscadero, SASS #73085 Jan 23 2007, 02:07 PM Post #1

SASS# 73085
River Bend Rough Riders
Joined: 11/6/06



Got a shipment of bullets in yesterday that looks to have had a rough trip getting here. A box of 500 .45 Colt bullets was split open and scattered in the outer box. They still look ok except most of the bullets lost their wax lube or at least most of it. So my question is, what is the best way to get them lubricated? This is probably a one time only (I hope) necessity so I do not want to invest in bullet sizing/lubricating equipment. I read somewhere that I could just stand the bullets in a pan and melt lube in the pan up to the lube ring. Sounds like it would work. Is there a better way to get the job done (without having to buy any equipment)?

Bucky


BLACKFOOT SASS #11947 Jan 23 2007, 02:31 PM Post #2

SASS# 11947
Oakwood Outlaws, Texas Troublemakers
Joined: 03/13/02
From: TEXAS



Lee liquid Alox. Only equipment needed is a medium size container like an ice cream container or such.

Blackfoot


Wills Point Pete, SASS#68127 Jan 23 2007, 02:45 PM Post #3

SASS# #68127
Texas Ten Horns
Joined: 10/24/05
From: Texas



Okay, pan lubing is fairly easy. You will need a pound or so of beeswax or soybean wax, whichever is cheaper. Then about an equal weight of solid shortening, Crisco or something cheaper.
Melt 'em together in your cowboy microwave, be careful so you don't set it afire. I use a double boiler but I lube a lot of bullets. The trouble with the double boiler is that you never get it all out of the boiler.
Now, once you have the mix melted, let it cool. you'll want it to cool to where it is fairly hard. If it's too soft, add some wax.
Now, set these bullets base down with a little distance between them in an old, ready to throw away cookie sheet and heat everything to about 300 degrees or so. Remelt the lube and gently pour it in until the lube covers the grooves in the bullets. Let everything cool well until the lube is solid, now, put the cookie sheet in the refrigerater, or outside into dry cold. Once the lube and bullets are good and cold, turn the cookie sheet over, drop the "lube and bullet cake" out. Push each bullet out from the base, the lube will stick in the grooves. Put the "cake" back in the pan and put the next batch of bullets in the holes, remelt and repeat.
You will have a bunch of lube left, bust it up into chunks and use it to start fires buring well, Note, I believe it is possible to remove all the lead from the cookie sheet. I don't even try, the risk is not worth it. Throw the cookie sheet away and use a throwaway bowl like a big soft margerine one.





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