BradD

I'm not quite sure how I got off on to .338's (I must have been up past my bedtime), but of the five AI's I've done they all had the same annoying problems. Life is too short for that. You could be out hunting. B

Hi Devo, If you haven't done so yet, look back in this category a ways. There is two rather lengthy postings I did about a 325WSM conversion on a standard length 98 (I used two FN commercials). One posting was done for me as a favor by Jason (Roscoedoh) since I couldn't get any pictures up. It has pics and an abbreviated narrative. The other posting is a rather lengthy narrative. Bottom line: wellll, yes it is doable, but not worth it. Go buy a Model 70 and be money ahead and grief behind. Also, other good words of wisdom from z1r. The 338/06 AI looks pretty good on paper, but it also is a colossal nuisance, from case forming to case annealing to some feeding problems and they are very fussy about bullet seating. I have one which I completed three years ago and I'm still screwing around with it. The reloading dies are breathtakingly expensive and almost impossible to find (although I do have an extra brand new set I would sell you at the price I paid for them if you think you REALLY have to do it). I have also found with these Ackley's that I am losing one round capacity in the magazines, due to the increased shoulder diameter. So take a long hard look at the data. Is the difference really worth it? The standard 338/06 (aka 338/06 A Square) is very friendly to reload and both commercial brass and commercial ammo is available for it. If you're just playing, go ahead, have fun (and spend mucho money). If you're going hunting, do the standard 338/06. You can get a lot of loading data for the AI's at www.huntingnut.com. It is all anecdotal so follow with caution. Another good resource for a lot of AI loads is "Nick Harvey's Practical Reloading Manual". I can't remember where I got mine, but I think it was Amazon.com. Otherwise do a search. Good luck, Brad

You know, that's a good point. It would be worthy of a BATFE legal opinion as to the legality of a simple enhancing of a number which has gotten dim due to weak stamping, restoration or wear. Logically (not always the way the law works) it seems like if it were in the same original place and the same exact number there should be some kind of verification process to allow it. I'll try to contact our local office for an opinion. If I get anything I'll post it. Brad

Mike, I'm glad you went to church before you tried it. Frankly, I try to stop by at St. Francis for a couple of quick ones before I shoot that long FP. I just thought all of that was interesting. I don't recommend anything but going by the book. Let me know if you come up with a whiz-bang way to stop the case stretching besides the undesireable necking-up, necking-down tap dance. Brad

I know everyone knows that headspace (interior chamber dimensions) causes the primer "creep" protrusion, but fixing it sure is a pain. Some suggestions include short sizing the neck top make a false shoulder thereby holding the case tight enough back against the bolt face until firing, thus sizing the case to the headspace of the particcular chamber. I'm working on some AI's that have this problem and so far the "false shoulder" drill hasn't worked real well. There is less protrusion each time, but the case will be shot by the time I do it enough times to make it satisfactory. I've also heard expand the neck with the next neck size up (ie" .30 to a 8mm) and then resize back again leaving a false shoulder" thus leaving a more positive bearing surface to hold the case back until firing. Can't bring myself to do that. For those who haven't heard how it works: case shorter than chamber; pin hits primer, pushes case forward; cartridge ignites in forward positon heaving space between case head and bolt face; pressure either: 1) pushes primer back leaving it protruding or 2) forces case head stretching and eventually splitting. Or both. On the primer pin protrusion which is really what I wanted to write about, Kunhausen says .055-.065" with .060 being optimal (p. 58). I've been told even .070-.075" doesn't really matter, by reliable people. Here's the kicker, I recently put in a David Tubbs Speedlock firing pin and spring. Great stuff! However, when I checked the firing pin protrusion it was a whopping .125". I almost fainted! One thing about buying Tubbs stuff is that you can always call and yack with David or one of his guys. Really nice, really helpful. So, I called and asked about turning down the unusual steel thats in the tip. The reply was, "why bother?" Stunned, I mumbled something about that's what you're supposed to do. They said they have studied this and it's pretty much a myth. With modern primers and harder, thicker anvils all that is going to happen is that the primer body will crush till it's done and the firing pin will stop. You can't punch through solely with just a long primer nose. They are really smart there, but I wasn't convinced. Too many years doing it the traditional way. However, I decided to try it a bit. The gun is a .338 Win Mag on a recycled Browning FN 98. Put on all the safety gear I could find and closed my eyes and fired. Gun went bang primer looked fine. Have probably fired a 150 rounds that way without the slightest trouble or anything odd about the primers. And believe me, I check every one! I still am not comfortable with this new thought, though, and will eventually turn it down anyway. Just thought I'd share that with you. Should stir up somebody. I'm not recommending anything but the usual way. Brad

PS on that to z's comment. A couple of unnumbereds I've had went through a FFLs. Both times they insisted that the date either WAS the SN or that it was close enough for them, effectively making the date the SN. By then, who really cares anymore!!!

If they don't have serial numbers, they don't have serial numbers. It's spooky, but they are legal, so long as they NEVER had numbers. If they had them but they've been removed it's time for the smelter. On legal unnumbered guns I understand that you can contact BATFE and request that they issue you a serial number, which you can then have applied. I guess you get paperwork from them proving it's all legit. Sounds like a nightmare to me! My guy says that if there is already a legal serial number on the gun and you just wish to restamp it to a more visible place there is no issue at all. I have had several which did have regular serial numbers on the bottom flat or under the stock line, along with proof and assembly marks. Being an old cop I wanted them out where they can be seen. There just is no best answer on that point. As long as it is legally unnumbered it's pretty much a matter of what you're comfortable with. Brad

I consider myself fortunate to have found a few FN commercials over the years, and while they aren't perfect, they are my favorites. Often times, since these were made for export to US "gun builders" they have no serial number at all. Such was left to the "builder" to take care of here, but many never got numbered or just sold as actions only without numbers applied. Look carefully at the numbers underneath on the flat. Some of them are four number dates, ie: "1952" or "1062" (Oct 1962) or some such. Some times there is a year only, I have one on my desk getting ready to go that is marked "52". It's a full "C" ring with low rear bridge. I have mistakenly had my barrel guy stamp what I thought was the serial number on the ring above the stock line so it could be seen only to find out that it was either an assembly number or a date. Oh well, that's better than nothing. As Vladymere said, the rest of the marks are either proof marks or assembly marks. Some had serial numbers only on the bolt either stamped on the handle (not to be confused with Interarms dating system on their bolts, but similar looking) or engraved on the bottom of the bolt body. That won't help you, though. Anything unnumbered will have been made between appx 1947 (post WWII) and 1968 (GCA 68). For the most part, the triggers are good for throwing at gophers. The farther away the better!. They were attempts at salvaging the military style. Get an adjustable commercial. The goofy two part triggers were mostly on the Sears "J.C. Higgins" Model 50 in the late 1950's. On the later models (mid -60's) you will often find a Sako "Made in Finland" adjustable trigger with side safety. They also used a sort of speedlock and the sear engagement was milled at a slant rather than 90 degrees engagement. Worked very well but needs the right cocking piece or make one to work. I have built 5 AI versions of stuff now and am starting to think that, for the most part, they are just a troublesome pain in the butt. The gain is minimal. The dies are expensive. Sometimes there are feeding problems. Cases need annealing. And they are so hard to headspace and properly bullet-seat that getting accuracy becomes awfully discouraging. But, if you're like me, just looking for something different to do, they are intesting. If not stay with the 35W or jump to the .358 Norma (fantastic, user friendly cartridge). Good luck, Brad

Thanks guys. And especially thanks to Jason (roscoedoh) for his hard work posting these pics. If you like a challenge this is an interesting one. If you just want a WSM to shoot, go buy a Model 70 and tell everybody it's a Mauser. Now to see if I can get them to hit the target.... Brad

Thanks for the kind words, Jerry. Actually my arm is sore from throwing parts across the room. Jason has offered to post some pics for me, so as soon as my email service gets back up and running I'll get them to him. Then at least you'll be able to see what all my babbling was about. Brad

Thanks for the kind words, Jerry. Actually my arm is sore from throwing parts across the room. Jason has offered to post some pics for me, so as soon as my email service gets back up and running I'll get them to him. Then at least you'll be able to see what all my babbling was about. Brad

FC, Could you explain to me again how to do that? Do I still need to go to a hosting site and add a URL? Thanks, Brad

IT WORKS! IT WORKS! The longer ejector blade solved the problem. But it wasn't quite all that simple, I spent most of the day getting it going. Mostly because I wanted to go slow and to revisit all the things we discussed here, just to be sure. This is going to be a long story, so if you're interested, get comfortable. If you're not thinking about something like this you may want to pass. I want to share this with you is because the reason - not the CAUSE, but the REASON - that this wasn't ejecting is something that escaped all of us. The CAUSE, a short fat case in an action never designed for it and the action longer than it needs to be for a WSM. "Reason" to be discussed shortly (well, longly). First, what I did: 1. Extractor - I put a std mag extractor on again and tried it - tons of tension. Nothing. I hand fed a 7mm Mag case that way and ejected it, and it sent it to the moon. Extractor not the problem. 2. Ejector not hitting far enough in toward the center - Normally the depth of the slot in the bolt through which the ejector slides controls the depth at which the ejector protrudes across the case head. Don't know why we didn't have that conversation before - we all know it. However I decided to sacrifice a couple of ejectors in quest of truth and knowledge. First one, I ground away the recurve behind the lead edge until I got the ejector blade to protrude farther into the receiver, thus hitting close to the center of the case head. Nothing once again. 3. Ejector hitting too far in toward the center of the head - Next I took another new ejector blade and cut an even bigger notch than before on the lead point of the lead edge, effectively moving the striking point out to about 3/32" from the outer edge of the rim. Nothing. 4. I liked the idea that sonic 1 made of grinding the bolt stop back to make the bolt stop farther back and thus making the ejector protrude farther and striking harder. Kind of like what I was thinking of doing anyway. So I sacrificed an ejector box/bolt stop and ground and tried and ground and tried, etc. Guess what?...Nothing. Hmmmm, why didn't that work??? It really did protrude a lot farther. Therein lies the secret. Have you ever looked down the canyon, I mean tunnel, under the bridge when the bolt is fully retracted against the bolt stop? It must be an inch or more deep!!! Now the REASON. A standard length cartridge or, for that matter a WSM with a bullet in the end has enough forward weight to cause inertia and begin the case to fly NECK FIRST when it hits the ejector. And, for a standard case, enough lateral clearance within the tunnel to get moving and keep moving. A little short fat WSM has very little clearance to allow lateral movement down in the tunnel even when there is sufficient weight up front to intitiate inertia. But the real problem is that when that chubby little sucker is back down in the depths of the receiver bridge tunnel, by the time it hits the ejector, it's not going anywhere! After ejecting several dozen times in several dozen configurations I started watching what happened. The case did indeed jump mightily, hit the other side of the tunnel and then just rattled around in it's too-deep cavern, but it wasn't going anywhere. So, why does a longer ejector blade work? When we ground the bolt stop back, the bolt - well - stopped farther back, making Tubby even farther down in the tunnel when he was trying to get out. Remember the chubby kid in school trying to get over the wall? My apologies if you were him, no offense intended. However, a longer blade hits much sooner, thus booting the case out harder AND sooner thus avoiding going deeper into tunnel AND having more get up and go. How'd I do it. Well my barrelsmith welded (hard weld) enough material on the lead edge to make it impossible to fit the blade into the slot so that I could hand fit it as tight as possible - lengthwise. I did not have to lengthen the slot, but could have if needed. I carefully ground the lead edge, consistent with the original angle, until it would just clear the forward end of the slot. I could always take more out later, but I don't weld anymore and I didn't want to send it back for more metal. Maybe .002" front clearance. With the additional length the blade no longer folds into the ejector box enough to allow bolt passage through the receiver tunnel. Easy enough, I carefully filed a square notch in the outside edge of the blade so that it would fold into the box the same depth as a normal ejector blade. Now when I eject an empty case - bingo! It's out of there every time. Not to the moon, but a good two feet, anyway. No jams! Data: An original blade measures 1.340" absolute length, but that isn't real meaningful. Flushing the lead edge to one side of the caliper and measuring to the other end gives a reading of 1.206" functional length for the standard. My new one measures 1.421" absolute length and 1.374" functional length. In other words I added .168" to the functional length of the ejector blade (1.374 - 1.206 = .168"). Thanks to all of you for your thoughts and I hope this info will help those of you considering a WSM conversion. It's possible, but there definitely is some new frontiers to explore getting there. If anyone needs pics or drawings let me know your email address and I'll mail them to you direct. It's hard to add pics here. My barrelsmith is Dave Carver at I,T&D Custom Gun in Minerva, Ohio (330) 868-6867. I've been with him over twenty years and his work is always outstanding. And he's pretty smart. too. Thanks again, Brad

Mike, I said I exchanged the ejector for a good magnum one. I meant EXTRACTOR. Just like you were talking about. Yi yi yi, getting goofy.

Hey guys, Bad, sad day today, but tomorrow I'll pick it up and start over. I got the two extended ejectors back today, so after I tend to a few other errands I promised folks I'll start fitting them. My barrel guy says it should work and it has before for me, but I'm looking at them and I see there is only about .010" left in front of the lead edge left in the slot. I'm not sure if I should just grind them to fit what space is left or extend the slot farther. I'd like to add .020-.030 to the lead to assure a good hard blow. Mike, I swapped out the ejector for a good working magnum one with plenty of tension...nada. I'll let you know. Hope it doesn't turn out badder and sadder than today...Yikes! PS: grinding the bolt stop back was an interesting thought, too. Anybody ever done that before? I might just try it with an old junker bolt stop/ejector box before I do anything else. That's less permanent than extending the ejector slot in the receiver. PPS: Posting pics has turned out to be, well, challenging, but some day they will be here. Choosing between picture posting and ornery ejectors is a tough one, but I better spend my time on the ejector. Heinekin would be better than either. B.

Jimro and Doble, Today I tried the ejector modifications that we discussed yesterday. I pulled out an unused, probably surplus, ejector that matched the current one. I cut a notch on the inside point of the lead edge, thus making the ejector hit farther out towards the rim. Nada. Same thing it just hit the ejector wiggled and died there. Put the other one back in and it made a squirming motion towards the outdoors and gave up the ghost. So the current location of the striking point on the lead edge works better than cutting it back towards the outer edge of the rim. Jimro, your point about hitting farther in towards the center of the rim, thus providing more striking force by increasing the leverage was originally what my conclusion had been also. Obviously there is going to be a point of diminishing returns as it approaches dead center, as Doble pointed out, wherein it becomes a dead blow and knocks the case loose with no projection. Right now, I guess I'm back to waiting for my lengthened ejectors and seeing how that works. As I mentioned it did work for me some time ago on another std mag conversion that was acting that way. We'll see.... Jason, I (and probably all the rest of us) would really appreciate tha magazine geometry info. Hope you can find it. I also, have a couple of pics ready to add, if I can figure out how to that. Hope it's not as hard as fixing ejectors. Brad

Hmmmm.... You might have a good point here. I had been studying the point of impact on the case, wondering if that might make a difference. Funny thing, I came to the conclusion that if the lead edge of the ejector hit farther in towards the center, there would be more striking force on the case as it would be leveraging the case more. But now that I 've thought about your point, I think it is well taken. Obviously if the lead hit anywhere near the center then it would just be a dead blow and, as you pointed out, it would just be knocked loose from the claw and drop dead where it layed. Which is about what is happening. I will dig out another ejector and change the impact point tomorrow and report back what I find. I may go back to Siamese Mausers after this one.... Thanks, Brad

Hi Jason, Sorry about being slow getting back to you. Gun show in Vegas. Had to go. Anyway, of the two, my son's functioned flawlessly. On mine nothing worked very well. Two almost identical FN's about the same age. My barrel guy took care of the feed rails when he did the barrels and bolt faces. Nothing exotic there, pretty much the usual magnum trim job. However mine would not hold the last cartridge reliably. I have dealt with this a time or two in the past with mag conversions. The solution for me has been to undercut the left rail, thereby making the cartridge nestle back under the rail a bit more and try to get the following round or follower to push the ready round at, say 4:30, instead of maybe 5 o'clock, thus holding it farther under the rail. Make the contour of the grinding consistent with the shape of the cartridge for smooth feeding. And, of course - GO SLOW and test. I've never had a subsequent feeding problem and it has always worked, pemanently. Right now mine feeds okay, but it hits the feedramp rather hard and I think I can improve that nicely with a little reconfiguration of the ramp, tubby cartridges trying to get through small holes... Haven't gotten to it yet. Will let you know. As I mentioned earlier, both guns eject a loaded round in fine fashion. Neither ejects an empty case very well, or at all. I changed the extractor for another magnum extractor and that did nothing (wasn't a tension problem). I was concerned about that because I had my 'smith bevel the extractor claw a bit so that it would load over a round, thus enabling me to load three rounds (the FN will only hold two in the magazine). I played with several different ejectors, finding one that was a few thousandths longer and it does kick the empty out, although not as positively as I would like. I want to know this thing is going to work if I have a mad pig running at me, or away for that matter. Thus I came to the conclusion that adding metal to the lead edge of the ejector will add ejection torque to the ejector by hitting the case earlier than normal. I haven't gotten the ejectors back yet, but when I finish fitting them will post the results here. I will add that I had this problem once before with a mag conversion and that did fix it. Hope it works this time, too. As for the magazine itself I just used two original mags with the blocks in them for .308/.243 length cartridges. That part worked fine. I will have my missus shoot a couple of pictures of mine and post them here later. Hope that addressed most of the things you were wondering about. Brad

Thanks. As it turns out the ejector wasn't binding, but the ejector box assembly was overmilled and it was incredibly sloppy. I replaced it with a new assembly, but that didn't make things work any better, but it made me feel better. I have seen that problem before though and it does happen. Will let you know how the longer ejector works out. Thanks, Brad

Hi all, I'm just finishing up two 325 WSMs that I built on FNs (one for me and one for my son). Not only am I the first kid on the block to have one I may be the last, considering how they are not exactly taking off like crazy. Anyway, I have solved all of the problems that come with putting a WSM in a Mauser (and, boy, are there a bunch) except for ejection. With a loaded cartridge it ejects cleanly. With an empty case (which is what you usually do when hunting) the empty just wiggles a little bit when it hits the ejector and then lays there like a big egg. Changing extractors made no impact. Right now I'm planning on adding metal to the end of the ejector to see if adding more ejection leverage will kick that tubby little sucker out. That worked on another conversion I did some years ago on a less strangely shaped cartridge. Anyone else dealt with this before? Brad