TLynn

spec4 E4 1 Posts: 225 (6/17/05 22:56) Reply D&T question -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I have an question on the D&T fixture for the mauser. I know most of them used the three holes bars for the 1 pcs mount, But is there an fixture for the two pcs mount? Thanks spec.4 donmarkey 1 Posts: 41 (6/18/05 9:37) Reply D&T question -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Most jigs are for 2 pc mounts The spacing is the same you just don't need the 4th hole for 1 pc mounts. You might have to shift the jig around if you have a intermediate action. Don Sailormilan2 1 Posts: 833 (6/18/05 12:39) Reply Re: D&T question -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I will post some pictures or links to show hole spacing and positions on standard 98 receivers and the yugo style. I had placed colored dots on the receiver showin the hole postions. The black holes would be the postions of the holes on a standard 98 receiver. The red dot shows the position of the upper scope screw on a Yugo Mauser. Since it is only .2" further back than the same hole would be on a standard Mauser 98, there is plenty of room for a one piece base. However, if you try to use the two base on a Yugo, you run into problems. The rear of the base over hangs the rear receiver ring and cam. But you can move it forward and position the rear base hole over the red dot. But you can't do that with the standard mauser D&T guide in place. So, I use the B-Square base marked "S" ( I assume the Wheeler setup is similar), and I tap the positioning pins up out of the way. This gives me the latitude to move the D&T guide farther forward. The rear mount can be positioned far enough forward to hide the charger clip slot. The green dot shows the position of the front screw hole, if done this way. But,this is only if you have contoured the receiver bridge. Leupold makes a rear base for 98s with the charger clip hump in place. but, its hole spacing is closer together, and the corner milled to miss the bolt cam as it is positioned farther back. This base does allow you to use the one piece bases too. www.geocities.com/sailormilan2/receiverh.JPG www.geocities.com/sailormilan2/receivere.JPG www.geocities.com/sailormilan2/receiver.JPG www.geocities.com/sailormilan2/steyra.JPG www.geocities.com/sailormilan2/jiga.JPG spec4 E4 1 Posts: 226 (6/18/05 17:57) Reply Re: D&T question -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Thanks for the replies and the pic. I have been thinking about getting an D&T fixture and save. I have about 30 receivers that need to be D&T. But I must learn how to remove the hump of the charger clip. Thanks spec.4 Sailormilan2 1 Posts: 836 (6/18/05 18:30) Reply Re: D&T question -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I use a miling fixture on my lathe. Not the best setup but it works. I use an end mill cutter, then use a cup grinder to smooth it out. I am not a machinist by any means. I have been learning as I go. I make a lot of mistakes, broken some end mill cutters. But I have been having fun and it keeps me busy. The angle that the rear bridge is sloped at is a 30* angle. I mill off both sides, then take the left over little peak in the middle with a file. Then polish from there. spec4 E4 1 Posts: 227 (6/19/05 11:55) Reply Re: D&T question -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I will have to remove the hump by hand. I don't have any machine to do it for me. I have files, sand paper and deremal.

manureman 1 Posts: 402 (6/18/05 8:34) Reply Another C&R question -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I usually have a copy of my C&R with me in case I come across something I want ,well a few days ago I bought a 09 Argie at a show I stumbled onto and didn't have a copy with me so I just filled out the yellow copy and bought it,do I need to log this any where since I didn't buy it on my license.Thanks Jim OldgrandpainMI 1 Posts: 111 (6/18/05 9:34) Reply reply -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I do not think you have to enter it into you A&D if your FFL was not used, but you should keep your copy of your yellow sheet to prove the transaction was outside the bounds of your FFL. It is a good idea to keep an inventory of ALL of your weapons that were aquired outside the FLL for audit purposes anyway. Personally, I would, just to save any hassels! OGPIM mod70 1 Posts: 179 (6/18/05 12:49) Reply ezSupporter Re: reply -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I have never been given a copy of the yellow sheet. manureman 1 Posts: 404 (6/18/05 19:18) Reply Re: reply -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Same here .Jim Mausermeister 1 Posts: 44 (6/18/05 20:25) Reply ezSupporter Re: reply -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- It doesn't matter whether you used your license to purchase it or not. The rules say you must log any C&R eligible firearm you acquire while you hold a valid license. It must be logged into your bound book. ------------------------------------------------------ Two wrongs don't make a right, but three lefts do. Vladymere gr Administrator Posts: 623 (6/18/05 20:34) Reply Re: reply -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Yes, you need to enter this rifle in to your bound book. All c&r aquisitions, regardless of how obtained, must be entered in your book while you are in posession of a license. All c&r firearms owned prior to obtaining your license need only be entered in to your book if you sell them. You would then show aquisition and disbursment on the same day with a not that it was owned prior to obtaining your license. Vlad SB48 1 Posts: 16 (6/18/05 21:02) Reply Re: reply -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I asked this question of the local ATF guys (Peoria, Ill.) and was told to log everything I own in my federal book. I'm a FFL holder and not a C&R, and don't know if there is a specific difference between these, with this instance? I'd probably ask the fed's and get what they say in writing, for later? Administrations and parties change in Washington so, be careful with what ever decisions you make and make sure you can back them up? Above all, protect yourself. manureman 1 Posts: 405 (6/18/05 22:18) Reply Re: reply -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Thanks fellas thats the way I understood it to be but got to second guessing myself,to many irons in the fire and not enough hours in the day.Thanks again Jim

sphingta 1 Posts: 213 (6/17/05 21:28) Reply barrel shank length -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I think i already know the answer but here's a question. I'm putting a 280 rem. barrel on a VZ-24. The treaded shank of the barrel is .625" and the depth to the inner ring is .632". My question is is it worth while to have the reciever cut .008" or should it be okay the way it is? carzngunz 1 Posts: 133 (6/17/05 21:48) Reply Re: barrel shank length -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- If the receiver has already been trued, I would adjust the length of the barrel shank. I would only remove the minimum it takes to true up the receiver and then adjust the barrel. This probably isn't the only way to do the job but it has always worked well for me. tinkerfive 1 Posts: 273 (6/17/05 21:48) Reply Re: barrel shank length -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Well .625 is what it should be. A couple of things come to mind. Are you measuring the depth with the same instrument as you are measuring the shank length? Anything is possible, I'd just be surprised to find out that a rare VZ24 is .008 over what it should be. I think I'd screw the barrel on snug and then check to see if the primary tourque shoulder is indeed off of the "C" ring by .008. I have a bore scope, so I realize this may be difficult but, perhaps with tweezers and a feeler guage you can verify. If indeed the VZ is long, I think I'd have the secondary tourque shoulder on the barrel set back rather than trying to machine off the hardened face of the receiver. z1r 1 Posts: 2842 (6/18/05 0:17) Reply Re: barrel shank length -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- .625" is nominal. Many of the Vz24's I've done have been closer to .630" -.632" to the inner "c" ring. It doesn't matter what it should be but rather what matters is what you measure the distance to be. Add .0015" to .002" to that to allow for crush and you are set. So, even if your distance to "C" ring was .625" the shank should be at least .6265" to .627". Do make sure that you have measured more than once like Tinker5 said. And adjust the barrel not the receiver! Ok, be right back...... ...Ten minutes later. I just got back form the garage. I measured the following receivers I'm currently working on: VZ24 .627" VZ24 .630" VZ24 .630" VZ24 .630" VZ24 .630" VZ24 .631" k98k .632" K.Kale .618" K.kale .617" 98/22 .630" 98/22 .630" La Coruna M43 .626" Steyr Solothurn .629" The K.Kale's had the lip removed sphingta 1 Posts: 213 (6/18/05 9:46) Reply Re: barrel shank length -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The reciever hasn't been trued that's why I was thinking about taking it off the front of the reciever. I'll have to see if i can still find plastigauge. Haven't used or senn it in a very long time unless someone got a better tool to use. Also yes i was using the same depth gauge sphingta 1 Posts: 214 (6/18/05 9:51) Reply Re: barrel shank length -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Since i can't edit my post i was wondering If when you true up the reciever would i take off the .0085" or just true it and then remove from the barrel. I guess that would depend on the squareness off the reciever and how much needed to be removed for the process though. z1r 1 Posts: 2845 (6/18/05 10:33) Reply Re: barrel shank length -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I've never had to take more than .001" cut to "true' the front ring face. Truthfully, I never had one out of spec yet. The cut was just to give a nice surface. I wouldn't face .008" off my receiver. Adjust the barrel. sphingta 1 Posts: 215 (6/18/05 11:02) Reply Re: barrel shank length -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- figures i couldn't due it an easy way. The one person i knew with a lathe can't help me any more and finding a reasonable priced smith in New jersey is like finding a needle in a haystack. The only one i know that does machining work is griffin and howe. Guess i'll have to start looking around z1r 1 Posts: 2846 (6/18/05 11:19) Reply Re: barrel shank length -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ok, help me out here, if you don't have a lathe to adjust the barrel with how were you going to "True" the receiver ring. Please don't tell me with handtools. If that's the case you are better off screwing on the barrel and finish reaming to depth. carzngunz 1 Posts: 135 (6/18/05 11:36) Reply Re: barrel shank length -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Under those circumstances, I might just get an accurate measurement and take the barrel to a local machine shop that does small jobs. There will almost always be someone there that likes guns and will help you out. Setting the barrel back is a quick and simple job for a machinist. sphingta 1 Posts: 216 (6/18/05 11:51) Reply Re: barrel shank length -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- i figured i could get One of our contractors at work to due it. I have the receiver facing mandrel and if i folowed him to his shop i figured he could chuck it and cut it quickly and be done with it. Since i'm not super familiar with lathes i would guess the set up time on a barrel would be much longer. also since he is a worker and not the owner a barrel looks a lot more like a gun part and guns in new jersey are such a pain to deal with as the are the root of all evil. One of these days i'm just gonna break down and buy a lathe and start practicing. Went to night school at a local VO-Tech and the teacher was horrible. Never on time and was a salesman for a local company not a craftsman. Maybe i'll try again and see if i get a better teacher. z1r 1 Posts: 2849 (6/18/05 17:30) Reply Re: barrel shank length -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- You could do that. Or, you could just screw it on and finish ream it. That's probably what the majority of the folks buying short chambered barrels do. Most don't have lathes so they screw em on, set headspace, and bang away. sphingta 1 Posts: 218 (6/18/05 18:31) Reply Re: barrel shank length -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I'm trying to make an attempt at doing it right so i'd rather get the barrel cut. I didn't say perfect but mechanically right. I've always been more into function than form. So as long as its done right mechanically i'll be happy, for now.

OldgrandpainMI 1 Posts: 59 (6/1/05 5:36) Reply When does a C&R stop being a C&R? -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- **************REPOST************* Hey all, I have been looking for an answer to a question I've had long before I received my 03FFL last week, but yet to find an OFFICIAL answer. I was wondering if anyone knew "At what point does the sporterizing work on a C&R classified weapon make the weapon no longer classify as a C&R???" A phone call to the Detroit branch of the B.A.T.F.E. couldn't give me any OFFICIAL results, but the guy I talked to said: "If the weapon remains in your personal collection, there is NOTHING you can do as far as sporterizing, that will be of any consequence to your FFL. The problem lies when you sell it, now or in the future. A 03FFL holder that sells a modified 03FFL qualified weapon could be held libel for "Manufacturing a weapon without a license and some kind of Firearms tax. (which I didn't understand)." He also mentioned that: "If you improve the value in any way or sell it for a profit, you could be held liable for the same." But since he could not OFFICIALLY tell me when a C&R stops being a C&R due to sporterizing, he told me to write a letter to the B.A.T.F.E. in West Virginia. Can ANYONE tell me where I can find the "OFFICIAL" B.A.T.F.E. position as to what modifications have to be done to change the C&R status of a C&R weapon before the response arrives? I have written the letter to the B.A.T.F.E. in West Virginia (Firearms Technical Branch) as instructed to, but the letter just went into the mail today and it may be 6-8 weeks for a reply, if at all. I have read as much as I could stand, of all of the manuals that was sent in my 03FFL information package, but that is some very dry reading!!!!! Any help???? (If the origonal post of this question is recovered, please delete this. If you have left a reply under the origonal question, please reply here. The other post may be lost forever.) OGPIM Sporterized weapons are like children...... Half the fun in having them is making them!!! Edited by: OldgrandpainMI at: 6/1/05 5:55 ShooterTom1 1 Posts: 503 (6/1/05 6:55) Reply Re: When does a C&R stop being a C&R? -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I don't have the answer, But want to offer this. I don't think there will be an official answer. The BATFE much like the Calif DOJ, Never paint themselves into a corner with clear concise black and white regulations. That way they can make the regulation "mean" whatever they want, To suit there "needs" in any given situation. Its up to you to prove them wrong in court Just my thoughts. Tom Edited by: ShooterTom1 at: 6/1/05 8:14 OldgrandpainMI 1 Posts: 61 (6/4/05 6:56) Reply Re: When does a C&R stop being a C&R? -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I am glad to see that this post is back up and running. Maybe everything is on the mend. I agree that there is no guarantee of getting a non-ambiguous answer from a government agency, but it is worth a shot. Getting it in writing, regardless, is a hard learned lesson, and this is MY attempt. Posting here was just a short cut, I hoped, to find the answer before my reply came in the mail. Thanks, OGPIM Sporterized weapons are like children...... Half the fun in having them is making them!!! donmarkey 1 Posts: 24 (6/4/05 7:42) Reply When does a C&R stop being a C&R? -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I haven't received mine yet. They did cash my check though (good sign I hope) I'd think as long as it's a private sale, you'd just log it out as if you sold it unmodifed. Have you tried posting it on the c+r board? Don OldgrandpainMI 1 Posts: 64 (6/4/05 8:07) Reply Re: When does a C&R stop being a C&R? -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Don, Not yet. I was just there to see what was going on and eather my ISP is slow or the site is. Its taking forever to jump between subjects, so I just came back here. I'll go back later and see whats up. OGPIM Sporterized weapons are like children...... Half the fun in having them is making them!!! sonic1 1 Posts: 153 (6/4/05 9:40) Reply Re: When does a C&R stop being a C&R? -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- when you got your c& r you got a large book with all of the regs. in it ..you will find it a hard read.. every rule will have a can,if.and always.. in it..you will not get a hard and fast rule on your question..even on the c and r board no 2 posters will agree..most will say anything other than original configuration.is not a c and r ..but centerfire sells barreled actions as c and r..and now sells barreled actions in synthetic stocks..so i have no answer to your question z1r 1 Posts: 2793 (6/4/05 10:02) Reply Re: When does a C&R stop being a C&R? -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- He also mentioned that: "If you improve the value in any way or sell it for a profit, you could be held liable for the same." But since he could not OFFICIALLY tell me when a C&R stops being a C&R due to sporterizing, he told me to write a letter to the B.A.T.F.E. in West Virginia. This is true, a smith that provides an action for a project is subject to a tax. Not so if the client provides the action. This is just a continuation of those rules and makes sense in that the ATFE doesn't want C&R holders buying up ceap actions, fixing them up, and seeling them for profit. It is both a way to circumvent the class 01 licensing regs and not consistent with the notion of a collector. You can sell a C&R at a profit but altering it & selling is different. fritz501 The Gentleman Farmer & Piglet Exterminator Posts: 2352 (6/4/05 11:49) Reply Re: When does a C&R stop being a C&R? -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I may be wrong, but if you sell the gun (in it's original configuration) to a fellow as C&R, which it is, you log it out of your book to him. And then he can do with it what he wants. If he doesn't have a license, that is. What would be wrong with such a fellow having you then sporterize it for him? It's his gun, logged out of your book to him, so you have done all the paperwork required of a C&R collector. fritz I've learned....That everyone wants to live on top of the mountain, but all the happiness, and growth occurs while you're climbing it. z1r 1 Posts: 2791 (6/4/05 12:31) Reply Re: When does a C&R stop being a C&R? -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- "What would be wrong with such a fellow having you then sporterize it for him?:" You need an 01 ffl to do work on other people's guns! AzRednek 1 Posts: 357 (6/4/05 13:21) Reply Re: When does a C&R stop being a C&R? -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I’m not an expert here, I was a federal employee for some years and did work on a few occasions with ATF. I was also in the uniform business for a few years, sold guns trying for police uniform business and had a dealer’s license. First I know they will respond to your letter, maybe with allot of ambiguous BS but they will respond. Their biggest fear is you will send a copy to a congressman if they don’t. They will also keep your letter on file, violate what ever rule, law or fail to pay a tax in question you can’t play ignorant. ATF is also a bureaucracy with the power to enact law by bureaucratic decree, what is ok today could be a violation tomorrow. I’m certain some of you remember during the Carter administration there were several attempts to enact gun control via the bureaucracy. Save their written response. There are two types in ATF, the bean counters and the enforcement. It is the bean counters job to collect every penny in taxes they can find and earn their brownie points doing so. If there is any way of collecting a tax, they want it. The enforcement people have bigger fish to fry than nailing somebody over a sportorized action. If the action does wind up in a criminal’s hands or used in a crime, ATF could do some major damage to you. It is not wise to circumvent any rules, if in doubt, don’t do it, keep it in your vault. Even if the gun is stolen, traced back to you and you violated anything along the road transferring it, it could result in more than just loss of you license. A possible worse case scenario, a civil suit from the victim or victim’s family. If an ATF agent audits you, finds violations, he/she appears to be doing his job. When the ATF employee is up for review he/she looks good on paper if they find a lot of so-called wrong-doing. If the agent doesn’t find a lot of mistakes he/she might be considered a slacker (the same as a cop not writing speeding tickets) by their supervisor and passed over for promotion. Federal supervisors keep careful meticulous records of all their employees, they have to. The possibility of being drug into court promoting somebody over one of the privileged minorities is great and they better have all their ducks in order. Very simply, they will work diligently trying to find errors to show they are doing their job. If a simple error results in a conviction they will really shine in with the attaboys. The various federal district managers are in a competition to out-do each other. They want to look good on paper in case they come up for promotion or are applying for a higher level position within their agency or anywhere in the US Government. There is a strong likely hood of pressure being applied to subordinates to find violations. An imaginary case in point, district one finds a 5% error rate and district two finds a 25% rate. District two gets the attention, funds, employees, equipment and district one is forced to cut back. You can bet district one will go out of their way the following fiscal year to improve their numbers on the paper trail. Same scenario might apply to the amount of tax one district or agent collects. Some of you may recall the incident in all the gun rags in the late 70's when adjacent ATF districts working the same gun show tried to arrest each other. One posing as an illegal buyer the other as an illegal seller. I strongly suspect, as previously mentioned, the agent you spoke with wasn’t concerned about one transfer, he was however concerned by giving his ok you might move a thousand of them. roscoedoh 1 Posts: 861 (6/4/05 18:06) Reply Re: When does a C&R stop being a C&R? -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- OGPIM, I'm not an expert so take my words with a grain of salt. But... I've studied difference between the 03 and 01 FFL's on the BATF website a little and without getting too technical, I draw the following conclusions: The 01 FFL is sold expressly for running a gun business of some kind - that gunsmithing or gun selling for a profit. License enables the licensee to purchase new and used firearms which he can in turn sell for a profit. You'd also need this license if I wanted you to work on my Mauser for me and I wanted to drop the rifle off at your shop and come back later. (Once I drop it off and you log it into the bound book, it essentially becomes yours to work on as needed. When I come to pick it up and you log it back out to me, I regain possession and ownership of the firearm.) It is illegal for an unlicensed to person to work on someone else's firearm without them present for duration of the job. In essence, FFL's come down to possession and ownership. The downside of the 01 FFL, other than they're expensive, is that you can't use this license to collect firearms - it is for a profitable business and the BATF frowns upon 01 licensees who amass large collections firearms with their business license. Now then, the 03 FFL is for collectors. This license will enable you to collect all the 03 eligable firearms you want without much hassle. With this license, the BATF doesn't want the license holder constantly purchasing firearms and disposing of them at a profit. Its ok to buy a 5 rifle special from Century Arms, pick the best of the 5 and sell the rest to recoupe your cost and grown your collection further as you're retaining a rifle for your collection and conducting the sale for collecting purposes; but you didn't buy all 5 with the intention of making money off all 5 either. The BATF does not want you to have a business or consistently turn a tiddy profit with your collector's license. If you hold an FFL to make money, you'd need an 01. Furthermore, whether you have an FFL or not, you *can* work on any of the firearms you own in any manner you wish provided you follow guidelines set down by the feds (e.g. no barrels shorter than xx", you can't turn a rifle into a handgun, you cannot build your own semi-auto or automatic firearms, etc). Federal law provides that you can work on your guns - just follow their rules. The key is, you own the firearms ergo you may build up, tear apart, shoot, or dispose of your property as you see fit. The only reason you'd want an 03 in this regard is to glean the savings on parts that are available and have the convience of having the rifles shipped to your front door. And as a further comment, I haven't found any regulations against buying Mausers and sporterizing them and then disposing them via sale. But, thereupon rests a thin line between the appearance of an active hobbiest and someone running a firearms business without a proper license. Be careful about calling your hobby a business - you wouldn't want the feds to get the wrong idea. After all, when dealing with the bureacratic process, a lot of times its the fundillo making the decisions who determines whether or not the full force and attention of the Federal Government shall be cast down upon you. Any appearance of inpropriety and the BATF agents get an attaboy for finding an error. OPGIM, you now know all that I understand about FFL's. So far, everyone I've talked to has kind of agree with me in my conclusions, but don't take my words as the gospel. Please keep us posted on what you find out with your research, I know I'm curious to hear what you find out. Thanks and take care, Jason Stephen F. Austin State University Class of 2005! Doble Troble 1 Posts: 470 (6/4/05 22:36) Reply Re: When does a C&R stop being a C&R? -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Thanks, Jason. Great informed opinion, and one that I agree with completely. I just wish it were easier to deal with these people who are supposedly there to serve us. Nothing interesting is ever easy to do, especially with governments and other naysaying killjoys around. But governments and killjoys can't stop the intrepid. Just do your very best to keep good records and follow the published rules, then do what makes sense. If you get into trouble you'll at least know that you're right and have a clear conscious, and will be probably be thinking clearly about why the second amendment is necessary. I am Bubba (but learning) OldgrandpainMI 1 Posts: 65 (6/5/05 8:02) Reply Re: When does a C&R stop being a C&R? -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I will let you know what the B.A.T.F.E. says in their reply when I receive it. I understood the differences of the 01 and 03 regs, generally, as I did the same as you with their site. It was the question(s) of the weapon(s) itself and the actually standing of the B.A.T.F.E.. I use this as another example of my curiosity: If I take an unaltered, unmodified, untouched, Turkish Mauser that has been logged into my BOUND BOOK and put a scope on it, does it remain a C&R? If I refinish the stock, would that drop it? Both of which, as I understand it, could be classified as "Improving the value or state of the weapon" which could change its classification. Now if I purchased the weapon as a C&R and logged it in as same in my BOUND BOOK, how could I possibly log out the weapon if the work I did now makes the classification something other that a C&R, considering that the BOUND BOOK and my 03FFL should reflect only C&R weapons and their transactions? How could I log IN a C&R qualified weapon and log OUT a non-C&R qualified weapon without problems with the B.A.T.F.E.??? And then, if in the future I decide to sell it, and if I do SOMETHING to change the classification of the weapon, whats to tell me when am I unable to use my 03FFL and depend on a 01FFL for that transaction? This is the basis of my question(s) and curiosity and what I am trying to find in writing from the B.A.T.F.E.. I really do find all of the posts informative and hope I hear more form you all before the B.A.T.F.E. sends me their reply. Thanks, OGPIM Sporterized weapons are like children...... Half the fun in having them is making them!!! sonic1 1 Posts: 155 (6/5/05 9:17) Reply Re: When does a C&R stop being a C&R? -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- you have very good questions that we all would like answers for. many say just log the gun out as sporterised but then if you sell it how can it be tracked..and the log book does not show the purchase price or the selling price who's to say you made a profit. i think the business part is what the atf is looking for and traceability of the guns.but this is all up to the agent that you deal with. hope i never get audited . mod70 1 Posts: 165 (6/5/05 11:33) Reply ezSupporter Modifications -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Grandpa Just holding a C&R in your collection can lead to an increase in value if that particular gun becomes more desirable to collectors over time or you happen upon a rare variation. Furthermore, an act such as scope installation or stock repairs/refinishing can decrease the value of the gun in some circles. There is much subjectivity in many regulations and it frequently comes down to individual interpretation as to how they are applied. This is one of the things that propagates the legal profession and makes honest folks like us somewhat leery of dealing with the government. Seems all the rules and regs are so much drivel to the bad guys and they don't give a flip about any of them, and, unfortunately, they frequently don't seem to be held to their standards. I too await your answer from the ATF. fritz The Gentleman Farmer Posts: 541 (6/5/05 21:54) Reply Re: Modifications -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- If you sporterize it, you log it out as "no longer C&R, (sporterized)" Simple as that, unless someone wants to make it more complicated. fritz "Against the wind, we were running against the wind. We were young and strong and running against the wind." speared um 1 Posts: 89 (6/6/05 12:08) Reply Re: Modifications -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- AH, but can you legally sell the 'no longer C&R (sporiterized)' with your 03FFL,or do you need to use a 01FFL license? Thanx Dante' OldgrandpainMI 1 Posts: 70 (6/6/05 14:10) Reply Reply -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Speared um, Now you know the basis of my questions! The answer would be NO if the C&R is not a C&R any longer. A 01FFL MUST me used. But AT WHAT POINT DOES A C&R STOP BEING A C&R????? Still waiting for an answer from the B.A.T.F.E!!!! OGPIM sonic1 1 Posts: 156 (6/6/05 14:18) Reply Re: Modifications -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ok you log it out... 4years later you sell it .1 year later the atf shows up ..wants to to see it ..you can't just say its gone and i don't remember were it went..the feds like a nice clean paper trail on every thing, yes i know most people will remember where it was sold..but the whole ideal of the the A and D book is to show a chain of ownership when the feds go to looking for a gun. this of course is just my 2 cents on the subject and by no means have i ever been told that i know what i'm taking about..over at the C and R forum these same arguments go on OldgrandpainMI 1 Posts: 72 (6/6/05 18:03) Reply I may have found what I was looking for!!! -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- This may be the answer to give before the B.A.T.F.E. sends me THEIR answer, and it is what I thought and hoped it would be!!! A C&R "STAYS" a C&R even if everything is changed EXCEPT the receiver!! As stated in the import restrictions: I Quote: "A surplus military firearm is defined as one that belonged to a regular or irregular military force at any time. Alteration of the firearm does not change its status. Therefore, a sporting firearm with a surplus military frame or receiver is a surplus military firearm, because a frame or receiver is classified as a firearm as described in 18 U.S.C. S 921(a)(3)]" I have typed it word for word and highlighted the significant line. If the import regulations state this, then the actual definition above should apply to the A & D under the 03FFL! I'll keep you posted as the the B.A.T.F.E. reply! OGPIM Edited by: OldgrandpainMI at: 6/6/05 18:05 Doble Troble 1 Posts: 472 (6/6/05 19:44) Reply Re: I may have found what I was looking for!!! -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Not all C&Rs are surplus military. I hate trying to think like a friggin' lawyer. But I think your interpretation is right on. Good luck getting a clear answer from a beaurocrat. I am Bubba (but learning) Edited by: Doble Troble at: 6/6/05 19:48 Rhys898 1 Posts: 147 (6/6/05 20:04) Reply Re: I may have found what I was looking for!!! -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- My understanding is similar to roscoe's. I have been sporterizing guns and logging them out, but, I wouldn't try to sell one without going through an 01 if I had sporterized it. So for example. I just bought a Arisaka. If I leave it in original condition I can sell it later to an individual and log it out of my bound book. But, with the vz24 that I bought and logged in then logged out as sporterized I would need to sell it through an 01 and keep documentation of that transfer to show the ATF if necessary. Thats my take, as usual, I'm not a lawyer so don't hold me responsible, but, I did stay in a holiday inn express last night roscoedoh 1 Posts: 863 (6/6/05 20:08) Reply Interesting Discussion Along Similar Lines -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- NEWS FLASH BATF RULE CHANGE! This is sort of germain to this topic. The above contains some good stuff in it... And Doble Troble, I know you have warm, fuzzy place in your heart for lawyers. You shouldn't be so hard them - not all of them are bad; its just that other 99% of lawyers that give all the good ones a bad name! Jason Edited by: roscoedoh at: 6/6/05 20:23 fritz The Gentleman Farmer Posts: 547 (6/6/05 20:08) Reply Re: I may have found what I was looking for!!! -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I'm still in the dark (or grey as BATFE would like) as to how the first shipments of cutdown M48 Yugos were sold as C&R, but later they stopped this. Makes about as much sense as any other government regulation, believe me I have been part of the USDA years ago, and I never did understand their stupid rules. That's the guvment, and it will always be. If anyone here can explain it any better than the previous poster about the receiver or frame being the firearm, please let us know how it could be different. And why would a C&R licensee have to document anything on a non-C&R firearm? The log book is only for C&R firearms. If a 03 licensee buys a non-C&R firearm, it does not go in his book. I talked this over with an agent of that branch of our guvment, and she was pretty specific about no firearm being entered into a C&R book unless it was C&R. Your other firearms have no place in that book. And that book, to the best of my knowledge, is the only book you need to keep. fritz "Against the wind, we were running against the wind. We were young and strong and running against the wind." Edited by: fritz at: 6/6/05 21:13 OldgrandpainMI 1 Posts: 78 (6/7/05 6:08) Reply reply -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Excerpt from a guy named RICK, the post Rhys898 left: "I have, in my hot little hands, a pamphlet from the BATF office in Cincinnati entitled: “Gunsmith Information“ concerning your liability for Federal Firearms and Ammunition Excise Tax. This pamphlet lists some of the procedures that can make you a “manufacturer” and liable for Federal Excise Tax record keeping and payment. Three of my favorites: 1. Cutting off part of the barrel of a firearm, is, of itself, an act of manufature. 2. Engraving that “substantially” increases the value of the firearm is an act of manufacture. 3. Sporterizing a military rifle is considered to be manufacturing. They also state that checkering and refinishing do not “generally” constitute manufacturing...whatever “generally” means?" Things are getting interesting!!! OGPIM Edited by: OldgrandpainMI at: 6/7/05 6:10 Rhys898 1 Posts: 148 (6/7/05 11:21) Reply Re: reply -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- screw it, I don't really intend to sell any of my toys anyway But if I did I would be smart enough to wait a couple years after my C&R expired. Doble Troble 1 Posts: 475 (6/7/05 12:38) Reply Re: reply -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The thought of my C&R expiring makes my palms sweat. I am Bubba (but learning) fritz The Gentleman Farmer Posts: 553 (6/7/05 18:48) Reply Re: reply -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I think some of you are jumping to a conclusion as to being a "manufacturer". The term "engaged in the business" comes into play here. Since there have been some quotes from Federal bulletins posted here, let me quote you one: In the definitions section of the Federal Firearms Regulations Reference Guide, Chapter 44 Firearms, Section 921, paragraph 21---The term "engaged in the business" means: (A) as applied to a manufacturer of firearms, a person who devotes time, attention, and labor to manufacturing firearms as a regular course of trade or business with the principal objective of livelihood and profit through the sale or distribution of the firearms manufactured. So you see, for every Federal quote you can come up with, there is another one out there in official Federal books also! See why they like to keep it a grey area? But as to the frame or receiver being the firearm, this does not apply to C&R guns. They have to be in original configuration to be classified C&R. fritz "Against the wind, we were running against the wind. We were young and strong and running against the wind." Edited by: fritz at: 6/7/05 18:54 roscoedoh 1 Posts: 868 (6/7/05 18:54) Reply Re: reply -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ahhhh....administrative law... Stephen F. Austin State University Class of 2005! z1r 1 Posts: 2800 (6/7/05 19:21) Reply Interpretation -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Better to err on the side of caution. My father in law used to love to fight with the powers to be and took great delight in going to court over issues like this. But then, he had both lots of time & money. He usually won You have to ask yourself, how much of both are you willing to expend in trying to prove your point. Before you go go getting tied up in the definition of engaged in as a business think about this. fritz The Gentleman Farmer Posts: 557 (6/7/05 19:45) Reply Re: Interpretation -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- You are right, you may have to prove your point someday. But if it's in official government print, why back down? I have no criminal intent in mind, and I don't want anybody else calling me a criminal when I am not. fritz "Against the wind, we were running against the wind. We were young and strong and running against the wind." 724wd 1 Posts: 104 (6/15/05 22:19) Reply this is interesting -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- hey guys, i ran into this tonite. thought it was interesting and worth a look www.rawles.to/Pre-1899_FAQ.html fritz501 The Gentleman Farmer & Piglet Exterminator Posts: 2356 (6/16/05 21:30) Reply Re: this is interesting -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Several States (including Texas and Florida) use the Federal definition -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Interesting to see if a cop in either of those states knows about that law! Texas, in particular, is more interested in collecting the CCW fee, and most of the residents have caved in to it. Nobody wants to bring out the old law (still on the books) about being a "traveler". fritz I've learned....That everyone wants to live on top of the mountain, but all the happiness, and growth occurs while you're climbing it. Edited by: fritz501 at: 6/16/05 21:33 Doble Troble 1 Posts: 516 (6/16/05 22:16) Reply Re: this is interesting -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Hey, fritz. Can you expound a bit on the Texas traveller law? I may be rolling through there next week. I am Bubba (but learning) roscoedoh 1 Posts: 893 (6/17/05 0:40) Reply Re: this is interesting -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I *believe* that if you are traveling through more than three counties that's considered "traveling" (or travelin' if yer a Texan). I personally have never tried it. And with our new CHL laws, I don't know if I could use that excuse anymore. Personally, if I have the Model 19 with me, its usually riding around in my toolbox on the driver side. I have yet encountered a need for the revolver while driving as I'm not in too many rolling gun battles. ...And as I understand it, it is perfectly legal to carry the gun around in the toolbox - you can't easily get to in from the cab. fritz501 The Gentleman Farmer & Piglet Exterminator Posts: 2363 (6/17/05 21:30) Reply Re: this is interesting -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Unless the state legislature has changed the state law, the "traveler" definition is not stated as to how many counties you have to be crossing. It merely says that you must be a valid traveler. If traveling through 2 (or 3) counties is your usual route to your daily employment--you are not defined as a traveler. You are merely commuting. Traveler is different (don't ask me how, but it's the truth!) Many people are mistaken on the definition, just as the definition they may be given by a local DA. The one that always makes me laugh is the one where a fellow says that the DA told him he could pack heat while he was enroute to the bank with his payroll. Nothing is in the state law about that, and it is just a local DA's definition. But since he is the fellow who will be in charge of prosecuting you in the event some uninformed cop arrests you, you will have to go to court and prove that the DA told you that. It ain't law. The old law goes back to the days of horseback travelers, and they could legally carry a pistol in their saddlebags. As I have read the law in the Texas section of the ATF guidebook on state regulations, the pistol can be on the seat beside you, fully loaded. As long as you are "traveling". Upon stopping for the night, that pistol must remain in your vehicle, or you must have a CCW permit. But try to explain that one to the cop on the beat! I can't find my copy of the "State regulations" as issued by the ATF, but it was in there at one time. Maybe when Texas got greedy and passed the CHL fee, they may have skewed the older law. If so, it merely made things simpler for the local cops when they find a pistol in your vehicle. fritz "It seemed like yesterday, but it was long ago---we were young and strong and running against the wind" Edited by: fritz501 at: 6/17/05 21:38 horsefly 1 Posts: 1147 (6/18/05 6:42) Reply Re:this is interesting -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I read where it was legal(in Tex.)to have a handgun in a vehicle if you are coming or going to a target range,hunting,to a gunsmith for repairs,or leaving place of purchase.I still have the regulations somewhere in all my gun junk and will see if I can dig them up.Jerry OldgrandpainMI 1 Posts: 110 (6/18/05 7:16) Reply Re: Re:this is interesting -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I don't own a pistol or a CCW, but I have a close friend who does! He has been pulled over 3 times in one year. (Not a good driver at all). He always packs his weapon. Well, because of the way the police work around here, the "Don't ask, don't tell" policy on handguns and CCW just doesn't work. The first thing the cops ask isn't: License, regestration, and proof of insurance", it is " Mr. (insert name here), do you have your weapon with you?" If you answer yes, then they secure the weapon until the stop is finished and return it to you. If you answer no, and they find it, then it is BYE-BYE for two years and the loss of your CCW and weapon! When they run your plate, they run your background, and if it shows you have a CCW, they avoid the "Don't ask, Don't tell" policy by asking. Transporting weapons (especially long guns) around here is a tricky business!!! It is safe to say that if you cannot PROVE you are going to a range, smith's shop, home, trade show, or hunting (when in season), you'd better keep your weapon at home! (unless it falls under the CCW rules and qualifications) I have heard that it is legal to carry weapons in the back windows of pickup's in other states, but do it here, cased or uncased- loaded or unloaded, you will be spending a mandatory 2 years in prison for a firearms violation. If you have a trunk in your vehical, and the weapon isn't in it, the same thing!!! If it is in you trunk and loaded, BYE-BYE!!! As stated to me, "the only varience to this is to pickup owners, but it must be behind the seat, unloaded, and trigger locked! All ammo must be located in the glove box, and not stored in or near the weapon! If you have a cap, camper, or cover on the back of your truck, then this rule does not apply! It must be stored in the back end." The only positive change in the Firearms Rules that I've reciently noticed is that that have reduced the caliber of weapon that can be used for deer hunting!!! You can use ANY caliber to hunt, with the exception of .22 rimfire. (it used to be .30 cal or greater) I just might make that .223 I've always wanted!!! Forget the .458 Win Mag. OGPIM Sporterized weapons are like children...... Half the fun in having them is making them!!! Edited by: OldgrandpainMI at: 6/18/05 7:21 manureman 1 Posts: 401 (6/18/05 8:24) Reply Re: Re:this is interesting -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Wow thats rough,here in Mo. we've always been able to carry a long gun any way we pleased,loaded unloaded anytime and about any place now handguns that was different until we recently got the CCL ,now if your 21 and the handgun is registered in your name you can have it loaded and any where in your rig you want,but to actually carry it on your person you have to take the class and get your permit etc...Jim

724wd 1 Posts: 105 (6/17/05 12:13) Reply more small ring questions -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- here i am again, with more questions. still going round and round with what small ring to work with building a 6.5x55. my question this time around centers around whether a Carl Gustafs Manufactured swede or a Oberndorf Manufactured M38 be a better choice. for reference i am looking at these actions on Samco's site. i always hear about the wonderfulness of the Gustafs, but the Oberndorfs are $20 more for the same barreled action. lets assume they are both in the same condition, what would make the oberndorfs more valuable? Availability? Metalurgy? Accuracy? Edited by: 724wd at: 6/17/05 13:04 z1r 1 Posts: 2838 (6/17/05 14:53) Reply Re: more small ring questions -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- IHMO, the premium is because there were fewer Oberndorfs produced. I'd probably just get a Sweede and be done with it. horsefly 1 Posts: 1145 (6/17/05 17:31) Reply Re:more small ring questions -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Z is exactly right! I've got both,and I'd take a Gustav over a Oberndorf any day and save 20 bucks to boot.Jerry 724wd 1 Posts: 106 (6/17/05 17:46) Reply thanks guys -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- thanks guys, that's what i needed to know!

724wd 1 Posts: 98 (6/14/05 18:50) Reply Brazilian 94 ?'s -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- So, i have been looking for a small ring to build a 6.5x55 sporter. I dont really want to cut up a full rifle, and saw my favorite vendor has Brazilian 94 actions listed. From what i can tell on another parts site, the parts between a Brazilian and a Swede interchange, is this correct? Would a Brazilian be German made? Is it a decent small ring to build on? heath rmjchas 1 Posts: 2 (6/15/05 7:50) Reply Re: Brazilian 94 ?'s -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The Brazilian 1894's are german made, but parts interchange with the model 1893 with the square bolt bottom--NOT the Swedish 1894. 724wd 1 Posts: 102 (6/15/05 10:23) Reply Re: Brazilian 94 ?'s -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- good to build a 6.5x55 or a 7x57 on? i found a pic of the flat bottom bolt. interesting. any other oddities about this action? thanks for the info heath rmjchas 1 Posts: 3 (6/15/05 12:28) Reply Re: Brazilian 94 ?'s -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I believe they were orginally chambered for 7x57. I screwed an 6.5x55 barrel on one for a while and it worked fine, although I could not seat bullets to the same overall length I could for a Swedish action. It became a pain to load for two different bullet depths so I converted it to 7.62x39 724wd 1 Posts: 103 (6/15/05 20:02) Reply 94 questions -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- why were you not able to load the same length? different throat length, or is the brazilian action shorter? like i said, i dont know a whole lot about them, just what i can see on numrich and a few other info sites. it kinda looked like the brazilian action was shorter than standard. True? rmjchas 1 Posts: 4 (6/16/05 7:36) Reply Re: 94 questions -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Actually it was a combination of both... The magazine box for a Swedish model 96 is a little longer than the box for a model 93/95, and the Swedish barrels have a longer throat. They were originally set up for a very long 160 grain roundnose bullet. The Swedes went to a 140 grain spitzer; and a shorter overall cartridge length; sometime around WW2. I found that my Model 96 REALLY REALLY liked having the 140 grain spitzer seated out to the 160 grain cartridge length. If you have a 96 and reload, give this a try! The Remington bulk 6.5x55 140 grain PSP's have two cannelures just so you can do this! Like I said earlier, readjusting my dies to load for both overall lengths just became a pain in the butt. I have noticed that factory 6.5x55 cartriges will fit a 93/95 magazine box with no problem.

naganut 1 Posts: 1 (6/14/05 10:26) Reply Glass Beding -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- This will be a first for me and I need all the help I can get. I have a Swedish Mauser in a sporter stock that I want to Bed ,what I need is a good on line source for step by step instructions on how to go about it. Any help will be greatly appreciated. Thanks Naganut ringo338 1 Posts: 6 (6/14/05 13:49) Reply Re: Glass Beding -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Try riflestocks.tripod.com/bedding.html or www.acraglas.com/ my favorite www272.pair.com/stevewag/...kbed3.html I use plasticine or plumbing mastic for my dams, and lots of release agent. I relieve the barrel channel to free-float the barrel, use sockets from a socket set that match the channel diameter and use them to back the sandpaper and sand gently to free-float. I then put 3 wraps of electricians tape around the barrel just prior to bedding about an inch back from the stock fore end to ensure free-floating. Make sure no release agent gets on the glass area as this will not bond. Edited by: ringo338 at: 6/14/05 14:32 Doble Troble 1 Posts: 505 (6/14/05 18:08) Reply Re: Glass Beding -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Kewl socket use idea! I am Bubba (but learning) naganut 1 Posts: 2 (6/15/05 11:03) Reply Re: Glass Beding -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ringo338 Thanks for the info ,I,m going to get the 2 Gun Bedding Kit from Brownells--- Wish Me Luck--- Naganut

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claytonfaulkner 1 Posts: 126 (6/20/05 0:52) Reply carry guns -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- whats everybody like for a carry gun? i personally like glocks, light, accurate, comes in all sizes and is offered in 10mm. i really want to hear about the new springfield XD. i have never shot one but have herd good things about them. jkh004 1 Posts: 8 (6/20/05 7:06) Reply Re: carry guns -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I have a Taurus PT140. I love it-small and light. It is similiar to Glocks (DAO) -no hammer, but has a safety if you want to use it. My brother has Glocks-but only because they are his issue weapon and he qualifies with them- he really likes them. Haven't heard about the Springfields except the sales pitch-which sounded pretty good- all of the Glock qualities but with a grip safety to prevent discharges when drawing. 10mm needs a larger frame than a .40. Are you sure you want for a carry gun? How many guns do you need? ..... Just one MOE...... Sailormilan2 1 Posts: 839 (6/20/05 7:48) Reply Re: carry guns -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I carry a Glock, as that is what was issued to me. I use a Glock 22, 40 cal. Glow in the dark night sites, snake eyes. Things I like about the Glock, light weight. Things I don't like about the Glock, handle/grip does feel right to my Colt trained hand. Now, having said that, I retire in a couple of weeks, and I will be buying the pistol. Why? Because I can. However, the most comfortable pistol I have held? Browning P-35 HP. I have always wondered about how long a Glock in 40 cal will last. I have seen their ads about how many thousands of rounds a 9mm Glock will go. But, I don't recall seeing too much bragging being done on how many thousands a 45 acp Glock will do. Since a 40 is more potent than a 9mm.............well. Plus, the only Glocks I have heard about blowing up, are the 45 acp Glocks. When we received our training in the Glocks, we were told not to fire reloads, especially lead reloads in them. Their chambers and rifling are not designed for lead bullets. Shooting lead bullets in them can lead to problems. But, I have talked to fellow deputies who have fired lead bullet reloads with no trouble, one must just thoroughly clean them when done. Just remember, the Glock ( and the S&W copy, and other clone/copies) are really on 15 shot revolvers. DA only, no safety. carzngunz 1 Posts: 137 (6/20/05 16:54) Reply Re: carry guns -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I've got a Kimber Ultra Carry, 3" 45acp. I've had it for several years and I love it. I also have a Kel-Tec 32. Although it would never be my first choice it is easy to just stick it in your pocket if you don't want to wear a holster. horsefly 1 Posts: 1152 (6/20/05 19:49) Reply Re:carry guns -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I tote a PA63 in 9x18 Makarov.It's small enough to go in my jeans pocket,very thin,and the most accurate handgun I own.I gave $120.00 for it,but I think they're all gone now.I haven't seen any for sale in Shotgun News or at the gunshows.The little CZ 50's sure look like got hideout guns,and are in 9x18 Mak too.Jerry Eldora 1 Posts: 37 (6/21/05 19:26) Reply Pocket Pistol -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ya'll might make fun of mine! I carry a North American Arms .22 mag in a paddle holster. It's not the best choice probably but it is small enough to carry ALL the time in my right front pants pocket. Been considering a Kel-Tec .380 but I don't like the idea of having to work the slide since it doesn't have a safety. I have a S&W Mod. 60 but it's too noticeable to have on me. Normally, I carry a Taurus .22 LR around the farm for snakes and such. carzngunz 1 Posts: 138 (6/21/05 20:00) Reply Re: Pocket Pistol -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Eldora, The Kel-Tec has a hammer block that isn't disengaged until the trigger is pulled. Also the hammer isn't fully retracted until the trigger is pulled. It's a pretty safe design. I also like the fact that it weighs 7oz unloaded. Reverend Recoil 1 Posts: 284 (6/23/05 1:23) Reply Re: Pocket Pistol -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- As a civilian contractor in Iraq I am not allowed to carry a firearm so I carry a Louisiana shiv with a 10 1/2 inch blade. The Iraqi's stay away from me. For some unknown reason they fear being slashed to death more than they fear being shot. That works for me. Reverend Recoil Eldora 1 Posts: 38 (6/24/05 13:57) Reply Pocket pistols -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Carzngunz, Thanks. I will look more closely at the Kel-Tec. That's what I was told by someone who was obviously uninformed. The .380 would pack a little more punch! manureman 1 Posts: 427 (6/24/05 21:05) Reply Re: Pocket pistols -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I think you'll like the little Kel-tec.380,I'm pretty proud of mine.I'm no pistol shot to speak of but was impressed at how well it really shot.Jim AzRednek 1 Posts: 372 (6/24/05 23:13) Reply Re: Pocket pistols -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I have a carry permit and carry a Taurus Titanium 38 spec in my pocket. If I'm walking my Rottie when it is cool enough to have a jacket or coat I will usually carry a 45 auto and genuine USPS dog spray. For a car gun it varies, the risk of having it stolen when the car is parked is a consideration and I don't want to risk of losing allot of dollars or one of my favorites. Recently I have been carrying a beater Taurus 357 I got cheap from J&G that was formerly owned by a now defunct security guard company. If I travel out of state I carry an older paperless handgun, usually a 1917 45 caliber S&W revolver. I've been carrying since 1975 after being severely beaten by three punk teenagers. I got a brain and neck injury from a blow to the head from a pipe or club. The brain injury took almost five years to completely heal. Even after the ordeal I would only use a gun as a last resort. I've walked away from a few verbal confrontations knowing I had the advantage. I would rather be called a coward than face a widow, fatherless family or deal with the legal consequences and attorney fees. TYRVR X Posts: 1315 (6/25/05 6:25) Reply Re: Pocket pistols -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- .... carrying the old Colts Commander in .45 Cal. never saw any reason to swap for any of the newer shooters,although .........the S&W 945 tempted me for awhile. 911RAT 1 Posts: 171 (6/25/05 9:42) Reply Re: carry guns -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- A Walther PPK and a Smith Airweight Centenial. Though I've been taking a good look at the Taurus PT145. grumpy64 1 Posts: 3 (6/26/05 16:05) Reply Re: carry guns -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I like my Tarus PT111 for concealed carry. But I also carry my 38 snub nose. SB48 1 Posts: 21 (7/2/05 7:10) Reply Re: carry guns -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I guess I'm different from most here. I either carry my 629-4 Mountain Gun or my 617 K22? Most here sound more like they carry in the city, I'm more rural. I've owned handguns for over 35 years now and don't trust the Taurus's or most foriegn makes of protection guns. I want and need something that works first time and every time. My $.02. Edited by: SB48 at: 7/2/05 7:12 carzngunz 1 Posts: 140 (7/2/05 20:30) Reply Re: carry guns -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- SB48, I was told this by a fellow shooter several years ago and it has stuck with me since: " More than likely the only time you will need a handgun is when your life is in danger. At that time, do you really want to be reaching for the cheapest handgun you could find?" My Kimber has always gone BANG!

ksswamprat Guardian of the Plains Posts: 636 (6/25/05 21:40) Reply What happened? -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I recently bought a Browning Buckmark 22 pistol parts gun. The rear sight base (that holds down the slide) was exploded. The only part I got had the rear sight on it. I don't think dropping could of caused the base to break in pieces. So I'm thinking catistrofic failure. What could of happened to make a explosion shatter the base? There is maybe 2 inches of base left under the rear sight. And from the looks of the remaining part the explosion went upwards. Any ideas? Or do I just rebuild the pistol and hope for the best? Swamprat

claytonfaulkner 1 Posts: 125 (6/18/05 18:59) Reply gun value, i need this answered fast -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- does anyone know the blue book value on a colt detective 38 snub? this is one for sale here locally for 300 manureman 1 Posts: 403 (6/18/05 19:17) Reply Re: gun value, i need this answered fast -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- My blue book says $175 to $795 for prewar and$120 to $475 for postwar issue. Jim z1r 1 Posts: 2851 (6/18/05 20:08) Reply Re: gun value, i need this answered fast -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- If it is in good shape that would be a fair price in my book. Old colt double actions hold their value well. Prices vary so much by location that I hate to give dollar amounts. AzRednek 1 Posts: 371 (6/19/05 0:54) Reply Re: gun value, i need this answered fast -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Hope I'm not answering this to late. Be certain it is not Hong Kong police surplus. Many if not all were originally chambered for 38S&W and later the chambers reamed out to accept the 38 Special. Look for RHKP (Royal Hong Kong Police) stamped on it and/or a tight checkerboard overstamp on the barrel right of the 38 followed by the abbreviated word Spec. Most I've seen were well worn, re-blued or spot blued, timing and alignment problems are common. Watch for mis-matched color of the cylinder and frame as well as after-market cheezy grips. I've seen RHKP Colts with and without importer's stamps. Clarkma 1 Posts: 388 (6/19/05 15:39) Reply Re: gun value, i need this answered fast -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I got 5 of the Colt Police positives from AIM surplus that were welded over the police logo. I paid $80 each for ones without grips, and they all arrived with nice Colt Walnut grips I bought 5 of them for destructive tests, but I learned to like the Colt D frame better than my Smith and Wessons. I sporterize them by cutting 1" off the bottom of the frame, putting a Colt Agent gripper grip on them, and reaming out to 357 mag.

Karlunity Guardian of the Eastern Shores Posts: 3312 (6/13/05 16:28) Reply New rear sight for a p-1 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I have decided that the problem is that the rear sight on the P-1 has too wide an aperture. Any one know who makes a new P-1? P-38 rear sight? Karl TYRVR X Posts: 1307 (6/13/05 18:52) Reply Re: New rear sight for a p-1 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Don't know if this helps.....but the dovetail is the same as a Mauser rifle....try a Swedish 96 front sight, Karlunity Guardian of the Eastern Shores Posts: 3315 (6/14/05 21:11) Reply Re: New rear sight for a p-1 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- try a Swedish 96 front sight, -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- TYRVR. That is very good. Thanks Karl TYRVR X Posts: 1307 (6/17/05 6:38) Reply Re: New rear sight for a p-1 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Karl, I should have been a little more definitive in my answer, the front sight off the 96 may better fill the gap than the original semi pointed front sight on the P1, other wise you may have to have your rear notch welded and recut.

roscoedoh 1 Posts: 862 (6/6/05 19:03) Reply 460 S&W -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I saw one of these today in a pawn shop. Supposedly it can shoot 45LC, 454 Casull, and 460 S&W. The 460 S&W ammo had a plastic tip. I've read where S&W upper the pressure limit on this cartridge to ~70,000 psi (?). Can you imagine the headache that'll give you when the barrel whacks you in the forehead? Or the wrist problems from the recoil? I have to say that next to the SA Ruger 44 Mag I looked at last week, this is most ridiculous looking handgun I've yet layed eyes upon. This stainless steel monster was a foot long and deafened me just looking at it. For those of you who wish to kill Caped Buffalo at 200 yards or just like to beat on yourself this is the pistol for you! For the rest of us, may I suggest something in a longer and more sensible rifle configuration. The 458 Win Mag comes to mind... Sheesh! Jason Stephen F. Austin State University Class of 2005! SB48 1 Posts: 15 (6/10/05 20:17) Reply Re: 460 S&W -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I read on another forum where a member there had talked to a Smith factory rep at the Shot Show, I think it was, and was told that they don't expect the forcing cone to hold up, very long. For occasional shooters, no problem, for the guy who shoots it a lot, they figure to replace the shrouded barrels? When they anounced that velocity, it struck me as too fast for a pistol. AzRednek 1 Posts: 367 (6/15/05 9:54) Reply Re: 460 S&W -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I'm waiting to see if excessive gas cutting on the top strap dooms the caliber same as the 357 Maximum.

IZH27 1 Posts: 6 (6/7/05 20:10) Reply New Taurus -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Here is a follow-up to a question that was lost in the crash. I had asked for feedback on Taurus Revolvers. At that time I was considering the Raging Bull in .44 Mag. I opted to go with the model 608 with 8 3/8" Barrel. .357 Mag, Blued with open sights. I LIKE!! THanks Don M. For the feedback on your B-I-L's . Steve donmarkey 1 Posts: 29 (6/8/05 14:45) Reply new taurus -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I believe thats the same one my brother has, except it's stainless. I hope you enjoy it! Don

ksswamprat Guardian of the Plains Posts: 614 (6/1/05 22:29) Reply Karl I need your Helwan experience! -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I need advice on Helwan's! Just got 2 to work on for a friend. Hoping I might end up with one. One is not feeding right,the other is locked up. The one that is locked up the slide will not move. Both of these pistol's have hammer springs straight out of H-ell. It takes both hands to cock these dudes! Is this normal? If so how do I reduce it? One slide seems to catch on the way back. With no archieves I need in put. Help! Karl, Help! Swamprat Karlunity Guardian of the Eastern Shores Posts: 3279 (6/2/05 21:29) Reply Re: Karl I need your Helwan experience! -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Glad to help Rat. Quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I need advice on Helwan's! Just got 2 to work on for a friend. Hoping I might end up with one. One is not feeding right,the other is locked up. The one that is locked up the slide will not move. Both of these pistol's have hammer springs straight out of H-ell. It takes both hands to cock these dudes! Is this normal? If so how do I reduce it? One slide seems to catch on the way back. With no archieves I need in put. Help! Karl, Help! -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- As to the feeding problem: Are you using the issue mag, the one with solid follower and the finger grip, or the after market one? The after market mag does not like anything but ball ammo, and only about 6 rounds of it. The Issue mag, will take eight rounds but prefers ball ammo as well. There are things you can try: Polish the feeding ramp. Take the mags apart and make sure the springs are in right. As to the locked up slide, mine locked up when the locking block broke. Try this: Make very sure the pistol is unloaded,( nothing against your friend, but you know non-green people are not as careful as we are, so you have to assume the jam may be the result of a stuck round) If it is unloaded, put the grip of the stock against your work table, with the muzzle pointing toward the deck and pull back the hammer and holding the slide with one hand, smack the back of the grip. What you are trying to do is force the slide to open. Once you get it to open as far as the (Half moon) turn the slide catch release in the direction of the arrow on the frame and the slide should move forward, if there is a broken part, you may have to rattle it a bit. Once you get the slide off, check for a broken locking block, or a loose locking block screw, if the screw is loose, the block can move off center and jam the pistol. When you say Quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- hands to cock these dudes -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Do you mean, pull the slide back with the hammer down? If so, Yeah, mine was a pain, I had to order a new spring from GPC and cut a coil or two off. If it is the hammer alone that is had to cock, it may not have been put in right, You may have to remove, clean and polish it and put it back. I will try and find a copy of the parts chart and post it for you. Or better still, send my a pvt post with your address and I will mail you a copy of my "Halwan File" Take care and feel free to call back. Karl Edited by: Karlunity at: 6/2/05 21:42 Karlunity Guardian of the Eastern Shores Posts: 3285 (6/4/05 21:32) Reply Re: Karl I need your Helwan experience! -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Rat, check your E-mail. Karl

Tailgunner Dave 1 Posts: 23 (6/22/05 22:17) Reply Updated MN -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I had this pic layin around, and I think I may have posted it before.. but, here it is again, something for us to ponder and discuss So this is a new production model, using what looks like the same action from the WW2 model.... Id like to get a stock like that! RGRWJB Moderator Posts: 893 (6/23/05 20:23) Reply ezSupporter Re: Updated MN -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Interesting! RGR WJB C+R Collector Gun Forums Administrator/Owner manureman 1 Posts: 425 (6/23/05 23:07) Reply Re: Updated MN -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Cool! Walnuthead 1 Posts: 7 (7/2/05 8:02) Reply Re: Updated MN -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- You say you had this laying around, do you remember where you found it originally? Tailgunner Dave 1 Posts: 27 (7/2/05 10:32) Reply Re: Updated MN -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Yea I was'nt sure where until you asked, but here is the link to the picture.. www.russian-mosin-nagant....ts48.1.jpg

Robert357 1 Posts: 3 (6/4/05 23:27) Reply 1939 Tula MN1891/30 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I have a 1939 Tula MN1891/30. I reload near full power 180 grain jacketed bullets for it and reduced load cast lead (with gas check) bullets as well. I have been thinking cutting out some wood out of the handguard to more free float the barrel and I have a glass bedding kit that I might use as well. Every time I get the urge to try to improve it, I say to myself, that hey, this is a real piece of history and that trying to modify a $79 rifle is not really where the effort should go. That is, if I want to play amature gunsmith, I should find a nice old mauser that someone chopped up and use it as a base. So, what are your thoughts on your MN? sonic1 1 Posts: 154 (6/5/05 7:53) Reply Re: 1939 Tula MN1891/30 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- not every mil.surp gun needs to to be sported but,, there are a lot of these gun out there that are in bad shape and priced cheap,,i got 2 mn for $37.50 each just to work on and in no way feel bad about cutting them up..if you feel that your gun is just to nice in it original form then don"t..this is something only you can decide on.. just my to cents others here have different ideals Tailgunner Dave 1 Posts: 18 (6/8/05 22:17) Reply Re: 1939 Tula MN1891/30 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Well I have to come down on the side of.. Do It!.. I have done it to a couple of rifles of mine, just to see if it would make them better.. One a 91/30 Ishevsk.. I free floated the barrel, and epoxy bedded it, installed a MN sniper mount, with a modern PO scope.. welded a bent bolt handle on.. and finally got it out to shoot it.. And... Yes, it shoots real nice, very tight groups at 50 yds.. in about an inch. Have not had it out to the 100 yet. The other gun, an M39, I did just about the same thing to it, and it is a great shooter.. I have been using military ammo, czech silver tip, albanian, etc. At the 100, this gun could put tight groups inside a 3 inch shoot and see.. No rounds going outside the black.. I would like to recrown these guns, as I have not done that yet. So, yea, it does help to hotrod em a bit, while maintaining the original look. sonic1 1 Posts: 157 (6/9/05 16:26) Reply Re: 1939 Tula MN1891/30 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- heres one i restocked and played with the bolt img.villagephotos.com/p/2...C-006S.JPG Tailgunner Dave 1 Posts: 19 (6/10/05 10:06) Reply Re: 1939 Tula MN1891/30 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Nice work! Yours looks nice close up, I don't have the nerve to post a closeup of mine, But, here's some at medium range.. Karlunity Guardian of the Eastern Shores Posts: 3308 (6/12/05 9:25) Reply Re: 1939 Tula MN1891/30 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Gentlemen, I stand in awe. You are artists. Karl ShooterTom1 1 Posts: 522 (6/12/05 17:20) Reply Re: 1939 Tula MN1891/30 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Tailgunner, Those are nothing to be shy about. They look good. Tom "If you cannot dazzle them with brilliance, Confuse them with Bulls**t" sonic1 1 Posts: 159 (6/13/05 14:07) Reply Re: 1939 Tula MN1891/30 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- yes dave takes a lot of nerve to post anything here. but i say thanks for sharing your pixs. Tailgunner Dave 1 Posts: 20 (6/13/05 17:18) Reply Re: 1939 Tula MN1891/30 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- O gosh thanks guys! Truth is, these bolts are among the easiest to weld up.. The Mosin bolt comes apart easily and the part with the bolt handle on it is seperate from the locking lugs.. So, there is really no heat issues to worry about. So if you want to start welding bolts, these Mosins are good projects to start off with. grumpy64 1 Posts: 1 (6/26/05 14:46) Reply Re: 1939 Tula MN1891/30 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I have a Tula 91/30 whic I decided to take out of the wood furniture. I put it in an ATI MonteCarlo Stock. I been told I screwed up but the gun still shoots 3 inch groups at 100 yds. Good enough for me. I put a LER scope on it - 2x7x32mm. I also added a bent bolt by James (The Bolt Man) Roberts. Most recently this has been my "Hog Gun" but it has performed well as a deer getter. I have found that the light ball ammo works better than the heavier. Tailgunner Dave 1 Posts: 24 (6/27/05 21:36) Reply Re: 1939 Tula MN1891/30 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Nice looking piece, interesting looking bolt weld too! Poor hogs wont stand a chance! Walnuthead 1 Posts: 8 (7/2/05 8:09) Reply Re: 1939 Tula MN1891/30 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Dave - the third rifle down. Is that scope mount on top of the receive? If so where did you find it? Tailgunner Dave 1 Posts: 26 (7/2/05 10:24) Reply Re: 1939 Tula MN1891/30 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- That is a piece of Weaver Rail Mount... just the stock stuff.. I had to drill the holes in it. You can buy it in varrying heights from Midway or, I am sure Brownells. I think Midway has some of it on closeout right now. I had to use this stuff.. Because I acquired this M39, as a friends project rifle gone.. slightly..errrghh.. Shall we sa Awry! He had drilled and tapped the holes in the receiver crooked, and of different sizes! So, no standard Mosin mount could work. He did'nt want the gun anymore, so he gave it to me, I thought I could do something with it.. So, I got this stock, drill it yourself mounting stuff.. And it brought the gun back.. TGD

Dutch Mosin 1 Posts: 2 (7/1/05 14:50) Reply Markings on M44 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Found some markings on the stock of my 1946 Soviet M44. I couldn't find the meaning of them. Maybe someone can help me out. Here are some pictures. ?EC7 in diamond OG in circle 7 in circle and 5 in diamond Met vriendelijke groet, Martin. Edited by: Dutch Mosin at: 7/1/05 14:56 Walnuthead 1 Posts: 9 (7/2/05 8:18) Reply Re: Markings on M44 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Hi Martin, I'm sure you already looked here. www.geocities.com/Pentago...l#Markings

TaosBob101 1 Posts: 28 (6/1/05 13:42) Reply Ok I'll start it up -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- What's your favorite Mosin ? How many do you have ? Do you favor Finn production over Russian ? And do back up your favorite Arms Board files to your home machine ? RGRWJB Moderator Posts: 855 (6/1/05 21:20) Reply ezSupporter Re: Ok I'll start it up -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I rather talk about Karls pink m/39. RGR WJB C+R Collector Gun Forums Administrator/Owner fritz501 The Gentleman Farmer & Piglet Exterminator Posts: 2350 (6/1/05 22:16) Reply Re: Ok I'll start it up -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I wish I had an M39. Anything has to be better than the Russian versions! fritz I've learned....That everyone wants to live on top of the mountain, but all the happiness, and growth occurs while you're climbing it. ksswamprat Guardian of the Plains Posts: 616 (6/1/05 23:01) Reply Re: Ok I'll start it up -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I just aquired a 38 carbine (I think). Haven't done anything with it yet. It's Russian and ugly as sin. Stock has been chopped and a very bad fitting recoil pad added. Compared to my 1909 Argentine the action is like dragging a telephone pole across a asphalt road to a ice skater on a fresh surface. I want to make this a nice shooter. What kind of stock? What can I do to action? What about scope mount's? Or are they needed? Trigger pull? And for God's sake tell me what to do about the safety? I want to make this old cannon a 21st century prize. Since there are no archieves (at this time) maybe this is a good place to start rebuilding. A novice Mosin-Nagant owner and all of you. I am blind lead me. Swamprat Grow your own dope. Plant a liberal! RGRWJB Moderator Posts: 853 (6/2/05 9:02) Reply ezSupporter Re: Ok I'll start it up -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The m/39s are the best shooters. Century Arms now have 7.62x54R ammo on sale for FFL holds for $29 per 440 rds. RGR WJB C+R Collector Gun Forums Administrator/Owner Frappe72 1 Posts: 1 (6/2/05 14:43) Reply Howdy! -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I love the Mosin's even if they are strange and ugly to some. I have five of them consisting of two M91/30's, one M44, one M91/59, and one Finnish M39. I would't change a thing about any of them. HFSPBfan 1 Posts: 3 (6/10/05 7:33) Reply Re: Ok I'll start it up -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Welcome to the world of Mosin Nagants Swamprat. I would advise against buying the ATI stock, unless you enjoy doing extensive inletting and bedding. All of the shooters that I have encountered who bought these stocks have the same problem. The action will bolt to the stock but the action is not properly supported and accuracy suffers. I would try the ria stock from Boyds. It is listed at $56.52 on their web site. I saw an excellent scout type mount on another site that is on sale for $50. On the other end of the spectrum is the Chinese scout mount sold by CDNN for $12.99. It is ok to use this mount if you: 1) throw away the fasteners that come with the mount and replace them with new ones from a hardware store. I believe that the fasteners are metric. 2) do not attempt to use the small screws that secure the mount to the rear sight. As stated on an earlier post, drill out the mount holes and use the original rear sight pin and spring. The ATI scope mount uses a more conventional short eye relief rifle scope. I have installed this mount with good results, however this mount can be tricky to install. There are many pitfalls with this kit such as drilling the mount holes too far forward. You could end up drilling through the chamber. You will also have to cut off the bolt knob in order to install this kit. This is not a good mount for the novice to install. The trigger can be improved by polishing the bolt and the cocking notch. You can also improve the trigger by reducing the sear spring width and/or shimming the sear spring screw. Just make sure that you have an extra sear spring on hand before any attempt at modifying the sear spring. Insure that the trigger is safe before loading any ammo! I have yet to see a safety modification that will make it as easy to use as some of the aftermarket units for the mauser. I am sure that others have additional ideas to share. I hope this will help you. mantielkman 1 Posts: 1 (6/15/05 21:07) Reply Re: Ok I'll start it up -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I have a Finnish unissued m39, an m44, m38, and two 91/30's. I haven't shot the m39 as it is my keeper, but it is a real looker. I just finished restoring one of the 91/30's and it turned out real nice. It is a light blonde. The other 91/30 is still as is but seems to a good shooter. We had no trouble at all hitting a steel gong 15'' diameter at 100 yards out of the box, standing freehand. I love my m38 and m44. Both are real good shooters. I have been shooting Albanian 7.62 x 54r and it chambers kind of rough. That seems to be more the problem of the weapon and not the ammo. I am a real fan of Mosin Nagants. Walnuthead 1 Posts: 6 (7/2/05 7:58) Reply Re: Ok I'll start it up -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The first Mosin I bought was a Fin 91-30 from Samco, I love that potbelly stock. I also have a couple of M39's and a 91/30 sniper. I bought them all for different reasons and I'm not really sure which one I like the best.

Jimro 1 Posts: 875 (6/28/05 14:57) Reply Help me id this gun -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Okey dokey folks, I picked up a 65 dollar "Nagant" off the used gun rack at my local gun shop. It's got this S inside a gear looking thing, as well as an SA in a box, and KE inside paranthisese with "arrows" growing from the middle, and SK.Y over the serial number on the barrel and the date 1934. It's also got this weird hexagonal looking reciever that has no markings on it above the woodline, and I haven't taken it apart to see if there are any below the woodline. It doesn't have the fine "chainsaw soft" finish of my 1942 91/30. So what I think I have is a Finnish civil guard rifle, but I thought that those rifles had a different nomenclature than m39. Since this rifle wasn't issued to frontline troops, and therefore has no historical value, it's a good candidate for sporterizing right? Bubba Jimro tommee boy 1 Posts: 13 (6/28/05 15:23) Reply Re: Help me id this gun -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I'll give ya 70 for it. RGRWJB Moderator Posts: 897 (6/28/05 18:56) Reply ezSupporter Re: Help me id this gun -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- It's a Finn Model 28. A rare bird. Hold on to it. RGR WJB C+R Collector Gun Forums Administrator/Owner Jimro 1 Posts: 876 (6/29/05 12:11) Reply Re: Help me id this gun -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Thanks Roger, Maybe I should go back and buy the other one so I'll have a "shooter"..... It's probably gone by now. Jimro Robert357 1 Posts: 5 (6/29/05 15:59) Reply Markings indicate a Sako "S in gear" -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- You might want to visit the following website to see what all the various markings mean. I sense that you already know what they mean from your comments. russian-mosin-nagant...lmarks Gunboards Dot Com 1 Posts: 16 (6/29/05 16:46) Reply http://www.mosinnagant.net/finland/MosinNagant-M2830rifle-in -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- It is a M28/30 - With the 1934 date and SKY marking. It is a pretty uncommon Finn and very collectable. Here is a link for more information www.mosinnagant.net/finla...uction.asp RGRWJB Moderator Posts: 898 (6/29/05 20:01) Reply ezSupporter Re: http://www.mosinnagant.net/finland/MosinNagant-M2830rifl -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Brent is right. I didnt read the SK.Y marking note in your message. You should go back and buy the other, they are rare and great shooters. RGR WJB C+R Collector Gun Forums Administrator/Owner Edited by: RGRWJB at: 6/29/05 20:04 Gunboards Dot Com 1 Posts: 17 (6/30/05 12:37) Reply Re: http://www.mosinnagant.net/finland/MosinNagant-M2830rifl -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I bet the KE marking threw you as when I see the KE inspector marking I often think first M28 - even though KE was at SAKO for many years. I was interesting as on one trip to Finland Mr. Palokangas took Vic and I to see some original records in the archives which allowed us to see Mr. Erikson’s signature as he signed it on the original production paperwork. Does the rear sight base have a number? Early production rifles will and this does add to the value. It is a very collectable Finn and I think the best shooting of all the Mosins - this is really the case if you handload. Of all the Finns I like the M28/30 more than any other and have a number of them in my collection. This is one that I really like as even the stock is numbered to the rifle. According to Palokangas this is not the norm and very rare. Of all the M28/30's this might be my favorite although the M28 upgrade to M28/30 specs is also rather high on my list - one reason is that it took me years to locate one. I also like the first year - none dated - examples of which I have three. Again nice find and snap that one up. Director Gunboards.com And Mosin Nagant Dot Net Webmaster Estonian Arms Dot Com Edited by: Gunboards Dot Com at: 6/30/05 12:52 Tailgunner Dave 1 Posts: 25 (6/30/05 12:56) Reply Re: http://www.mosinnagant.net/finland/MosinNagant-M2830rifl -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I sold one recently, and it sold for between 300-400 bucks, so they are worth a good chunk of money.. They do pop up every now and then like this, where the store acquires them, as a regular old Mosin Nagant "Russian Rifle".. And sells them at a standard 91/30 price.. sometimes less because they can look worn.. But, they are quite different.. They were used a great deal in Finlands Winter War, infact the worlds highest scoring sniper, Simo Haya, used an M28, as his rifle of preference, without a scope, he used only the iron sights. He made over 500 kills with his M28. As the guys here are saying, they are very fine shooters, you won't believe the accuracy Jimro 1 Posts: 881 (6/30/05 13:30) Reply Re: http://www.mosinnagant.net/finland/MosinNagant-M2830rifl -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The rear sight base has a number, but it is much larger than the one on the photo posted. Jimro RGRWJB Moderator Posts: 900 (6/30/05 18:45) Reply ezSupporter Re: http://www.mosinnagant.net/finland/MosinNagant-M2830rifl -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Very nice pitures Brent. Here are a few of my pictures. Sorry for some being blurred: RGR WJB C+R Collector Gun Forums Administrator/Owner Edited by: RGRWJB at: 6/30/05 18:46 Gunboards Dot Com 1 Posts: 18 (6/30/05 19:50) Reply Nice -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The private sales are tough ones. Those photos from Finland? I notice the background - crates - people walking around and the same jacket in the photo so I assume this was at a show, shop, or collection you saw? Jimro 1 Posts: 883 (7/1/05 17:41) Reply Re: Nice -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I went back to pick up the other one, and it was gone. But I'm just happy that I got the one I did. Jimro RGRWJB Moderator Posts: 901 (7/1/05 21:11) Reply ezSupporter Re: Nice -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Jim For every one that gets away, another 2 will come along. RGR WJB C+R Collector Gun Forums Administrator/Owner

BEJ 1 Posts: 148 (6/5/05 20:41) Reply M-38 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- A local gun store has a M-38 for $105. I've haven't bought a milsurp in several years. What is your opinion of the price. The gun appears refurbed and in excellent condition. TIA for all responses. RGRWJB Moderator Posts: 853 (6/5/05 21:04) Reply ezSupporter Re: M-38 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- They are nice refurbished guns. They are fun to shoot and a big ball of fire comes out of them. RGR WJB C+R Collector Gun Forums Administrator/Owner BEJ 1 Posts: 149 (6/6/05 2:59) Reply M-38 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I'm going to buy it, regardless. It's a light, handy, powerful carbine (at least it seems like a carbine). A hundred five seems like a reasonable price. Robert357 1 Posts: 4 (6/6/05 19:03) Reply As to $105........ -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Not sure of your location. Out on the West Coast we have a sporting goods chain called Big-5 that regularly sells MN's (38's, 1981/39's & 44's) for $79.99 on sale. They say that the price is really $179.99, but about once a month they put each of the three MN's on sale for the $79 price. So $105 is not a bad price (i.e. much less than $179.99), but it isn't a "great price." For that price you might want to see if they will throw in some ammo or a cleaning kit. You are right that the 7.62 rimmed cartridge is plenty powerful. The problem with the M38 & M44 is that most of the current suplus ammo is designed for machine guns or sniper rifles and the short barreled rifles produce quite a muzzle flash. I like the longer 1891/30 because of the longer sight radius and hence better iron sight accuracy, longer barrel and less muzzel flash, greater weight equals less felt recoil, more of them were made earlier and hence if you find one you are more likely to get one prior to Great Patriotic war material shortages and manufacturing shortcuts. If my heart were set on either an M38 and an M44, I would opt for an M38 if I could get it manufactured prior to 1941 or an M44 if it were manufactured after the War ended and material shortages stopped. mod70 1 Posts: 170 (6/8/05 17:45) Reply ezSupporter Re: As to $105........ -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I have a couple of m38s One has a new looking barrel and the other's barrel shows a fair amount of use. The better looking barrel is not as accurate but both guns look great outside and are fun to shoot. I used to turn up my nose at Mosins but now find them really neat. I would ask for $105 out the door...

mikeh3 1 Posts: 47 (6/5/05 15:30) Reply K31 scope mount -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Does anyone have any experience with mounting a scope on a K31? Who makes a scope mount for the K31?Would like to hear from you. Stephanovich 1 Posts: 55 (6/5/05 19:11) Reply Re: K31 scope mount -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- A lot of people like these: Swiss Rifle sights but I have no personal experience with them. There are several Swiss rifle forums on the internet, look around a little and ask your questions of those who specialize in the Schmidt-Rubins.

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SAKIJOE 1 Posts: 1 (6/29/05 17:25) Reply GUNSMITH FOR M-76 ZASTAVA PARTS KIT -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- HI NEED A GUNSMITH FOR A ZASTAVA M-76 SNIPER PARTS KIT. THANKS BOB

Sailormilan2 1 Posts: 810 (6/9/05 8:26) Reply SKS -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Several companies are running specials on SKSs. Which ones should one get?? I have been looking at unissued Yugoslavian. Stephanovich 1 Posts: 56 (6/9/05 21:19) Reply Re: SKS -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Since you are in California, I recommend the IO unissued Yugo 59/66 with the CA modification (sleeve welded over the grenade launcher), I'm assuming you have a C&R FFL ? I've purchased two unissued Yugos from IO with the CA modification, they were truely in 'unissued' condition. Both are great shooters. I ordered both with my C&R via internet, took a week for delivery by Fed Ex, ymmv. SKS's are a lot of fun, the term 'cheap thrills' comes to mind, based on purchase price and cost of ammo. Good luck!! fritz The Gentleman Farmer Posts: 596 (6/13/05 21:10) Reply Re: SKS -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I just got my first Yugo sks, with the grenade launcher. I live in the free state of Texas, and don't have to kiss the fundillo of those weirdos in California. I must say, it is a nice rifle. I have a bunch of the Russian and Chinese sks, but that grenade launcher makes for a cool looking rifle. My only complaint is the sight adjustment. I am a mauser fellow, and need to know how to move that front sight down a bit and to the side. It shoots low and left. I guess I could grind some off the post front sight, but isn't there a way to move it? I believe there is a tool somewhere in my sks stuff that does this. And how do you drift it sideways? You can see that I am a real amateur with the sks system. fritz "It seems like yesterday, but it was long ago---we were young and strong and running against the wind" Edited by: fritz at: 6/13/05 21:12 Stephanovich 1 Posts: 57 (6/13/05 21:14) Reply Re: SKS -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- For sight adjustment, go to this link:www.surplusrifle.com/sks/sights/hs.asp fritz The Gentleman Farmer Posts: 599 (6/13/05 22:57) Reply Re: SKS -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Thanks, that's what I needed. fritz "It seems like yesterday, but it was long ago---we were young and strong and running against the wind" TwistJg26 1 Posts: 143 (6/15/05 23:57) Reply Re: SKS -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Get the grenades, Fritz, grenades. My only SKS is the Yugo and I think the GL looks cool. But damn, me Mausers shoot so much more accurately. I need that tool as well. grenade link fartingchicken Head Grumpy Old Man Posts: 4318 (6/26/05 8:49) Reply ezSupporter Re: SKS -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I shot my Yugo unissued SKS yesterday, and I highly recommend it. It is a wonderful rifle. Shoots nicely with the Bear ammo. Worth every penney I paid for it. I let my brother and 12 y/o daughter shoot it, and they both loved it. Light recoil, and devestating power with hollow points on a helium can. Ripped big old holes on exit. I wish it held more than ten rounds. Disassembly and reassembly were not much fun, but the instructions I got from surplus rifles and Greg were very helpful. I had not noticed that I needed to push up that tab behind the trigger guard. Buy the best Yugo you can afford. I got mine from Aim. I don't like their Swiss rifles anymore, but I do like the SKS they sent. I made my own front sight elevation tool by cutting a slot into a large Allen wrench with my Dremel tool. Good judgment comes from experience, and a lot of that comes from bad judgmentMilitary Firearm Restoration Corner grumpy64 1 Posts: 4 (6/26/05 17:40) Reply Re: SKS -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I recently purchased a Yugo Sks 59/66 from a dealer. It was imported by Century Arms. I installed a recoil buffer. Had the bayonet removed and the grenade sight taken off. A local gunsmith ported the Grenade launcher. It took a couple weeks to get the cosmo out of the wood. I took the rifle apart and used brake parts cleaner to clean the grease off the metal. I followed that up with WD-40. The gun is a sweet shooter. I put a 6x compact scope on it and at 50 yrds it will shoot 2" groups - not the best but good enough. At 100 yrds it is in the 5" area. fartingchicken Head Grumpy Old Man Posts: 4321 (6/26/05 19:42) Reply ezSupporter Re: SKS -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- How much more did it cost you to take off the bayonet, grenade sight, and get it ported? The recoil is certainly okay on mine, but I'm curious. Good judgment comes from experience, and a lot of that comes from bad judgmentMilitary Firearm Restoration Corner TwistJg26 1 Posts: 150 (6/26/05 19:59) Reply Re: SKS -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I kinda like the GL, makes the gun look cool. grumpy64 1 Posts: 5 (6/26/05 20:12) Reply cost to remove bayonet and port Grenade Launcher -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I paid $10.00 for all the work manureman 1 Posts: 431 (6/26/05 20:50) Reply Re: Grenade link -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Hey Twisted,thanks for the grenade link! I've been wanting to find some of those,think he still might have a few? Jim