rivitir

Good question. My understanding of the situation is thus:

 

Early cartridge bullets were "heeled"; i.e., the major diamater of the bullet was the same as the outside diameter of the case. The rear or base of the bullet was stepped-down to fit into the case.

 

At some point, someone figured that it would be easier or advantageous to eliminate the bullet heel. Unfortunately, they kept measuring the bullets by the outside diameter of the case, at least for a while.

 

The .44 (Russian, Special, Magnum) and .38 (Colt, S&W, Special) should be the only cartridges that fall under the older system and were "mis-named".

 

We still have "heeled" ammo today... it's called the .22 Long Rifle. The outside of the case is the same diameter as the bullet diameter. Talk about a throwback!

AH! Now that makes sense... I just measured one of my 7.62x54r bullets and it is .307 under the brass and .310 outside!

Thank you for the post gun nutty. Very helpful.

So if your "groove" (.008 smaller then the "land" diameter) is .310 do you want to use .310 bullets or should you use .311 or .312 for best accuracy?

From my machinist reference book:

 

.303"=7.7mm (actually 7.6962) = bore size

 

.312"=7.9248 = groove size

 

I think the Russian's measurements were a little off when they called it a 7.62.

 

With the 8mm mauser (JS) the bore size was .312" (7.92mm) and the groove size was.323" (8.2042mm)

 

The original 8mm mauser groove was .318" or 8.0772mm

I'm sure I'm not understanding this correctly, so please correct me if I'm wrong.

Bore size refers to the actual inside diameter of the barrel this includes the rifling?

Groove size is the diameter of the barrel not including the rifling?

So for the Mosin, if your bore size is .310 then you would want to shoot a bullet through it sized .311 or maybe .312 in order for it to grab rifling? And I would assume it would not be safe to fire anything larger (ie: .323) nor smaller (ie: .308)?

And if your Mosin has a .307 bore then you would want to shoot a .308 through it?

Sorry for all the questions. I just want to make sure I understand this correctly.

I bought my Mauser back from 8uck's son. So I've been doing some research on what I can do with her. It's a K98 Turk.

While looking up dis-assembly instructions I ran across this video, this is the smallest K98 I've ever seen. Pretty cool looking:

I just found this conversion calculator http://www.worldwidemetric.com/metcal.htm

and 7.92mm is .311 inches!

ROFL!

Google can do conversions for you as well, just search for "7.92mm to inches" and it will say:

7.92 millimeters = 0.311811024 inches

Here is a shortcut to Google calculator:

http://www.google.com/intl/en/help/features.html#calculator

So does one diameter shoot better then the other? Is their a reason why their are different diameters?

FYI... I also heard that their is a 6.5x54r, its a wildcat round. Something that would be fun to try, that and maybe a 7mm.

I'm having some trouble understanding something I hope you guys can help me clear up. I have been doing a lot of research on Mosin Nagants and the 7.62x54r round and I found that their are a couple of different diameter bullets for this rifle but all are named as 7.62x54r (am I crazy?). I have not checked my barrel yet but I know of others that have found they have either a 7.62 (.308) or 7.92 (.311) and I also heard of .310! When I've looked at various reloading sites and other sites they are all different but mostly reference 7.62 (.308) or the 7.92 (.311) bullets.

Why are their different diameters? Does one shoot better then the other?

Nice project, thanks for sharing.

Just out of curiosity how are you handling the feed from the magazine? Or is this going to be a single shot?

I'm in for one.

----- Edit -----

I spoke to a couple guys at work and they are interested. So put me down for a total of Qty 3.

Very nice 8uck. I really like the laser work.

I found a story on the web about these new hi-tech guns. Apparently the owner of the firearm must type in a pin in their wrist watch in order to fire the weapon. Should the weapon travel farther then 20cm from the wrist watch then it will not fire.

Here is the story:

http://www.wired.com/dangerroom/2010/01/high-tech-guns-digital-revolvers-koosh-bullets-and-triple-tasers

And the site for the maker:

http://www.armatix.com/Smart-System.38.0.html?&L=1

Several anti-gun groups of course love the idea and think it would be much safer. Personally I don't think no matter how much technology one throws at something nothing beats proper training and respect.

I'm with 8uck5nort. Actually, if it wasn't for him I wouldn't have even known you could to this stuff. I find it very interesting and anxiously waiting to finish my first project and post it. I will probably never get as good as most of you but I enjoy it none the less.

Thanks for all the help and information you are all willing to provide.

That is one sweet looking trigger... ok I want one.

Any updates on this project? I'm anxious to see pictures of the finished product.

Don't forget to post pics when your done!

I think its funny that the trigger costs as much as the rifle.

Never done the stoning thing. That's a z1r specialty. I think it's "India stones". I'd check the board's archives; there are some tutorials for finishing actions. You'd use the same procedure.

Will do. Thanks for all the tips. When I'm done I'll be sure to post pics.

And thats what she shall be. A sweed barrel will be on her. New bolt,d&t, and reheat treatment is in her future. Maybe weld up some pits too while i'm at it. I've seen alot worse tho, nothing a little weld or steel putty won't fix.

 

Brenden

Brenden if you can post pics when your done and give some info on how you did it that would be great for us newbies.

I had a feeling the new serial number would have to stay, no biggie to me, I plan on either parkerizing or duracoating it anyway. The scratched in numbers just make it look crappy. I figured they did this just so they could say it was all numbered the same so they could sell it for more money or something stupid. Back when it was made I'm sure they didn't care about matching serial numbers because nothing is punched accept for the barrel... Fine by me, in 1941 they had much more important things to worry about (ie: survival).

Would you please suggest what type of stone or stones I should use? I really appreciate all the information and help by the way.

As far as the glory days comment... I meant that I want to restore it so it looks brand new.

I think you got a good deal 8uck. A little bit of work and hopefully it will turn out to be a really good shooter. However based on the fact it was falsely advertised I would still make a complaint.

http://www.rocksolidind.com/

 

 

http://www.g-owner.net/2009/Rock_solid/default.asp

Thanks. I really like their bolt handles too.

Any thoughts about removing the scratched in numbers?

they are .311 bore

Thats something I have yet to figure out. Shouldn't the ammo be called 7.92x54r instead of 7.62x54r?

Ahhhh, I work in the IT field so whenever someone mentions tape that is the first thing that comes to mind. Surpised they don't have DVDs out instead of VHS tapes...

I think you have been working to much this week.

Here's another one, wish I had the $$$ for it:

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=148777837

Is the rifling for the UK59 barrels for .308 or .311 bullets?

Back when I was doing some research on reloading methods I looked this up. I found a lot of people that basically said don't do it if you value your rifle or your face/eye sight etc.

I looked up a couple youtube videos I found a while back on the subject that may interest you.

Reloading Steel cases / reloading berdan by converting to boxer:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Mbf4C-8ViM&feature=fvw

In this video MacTeutates comments on how larger cases you can easily convert so a boxer primer can fit (ie: don't use something like 223 it's to small) and for the holes that are to large he said he uses locktight to fit them in.

I really like Ammosmith on youtube. He has some excellent suggestions/lessons on reloading. Here is what I found that he had on berdan primers:

Granted I don't have much experience reloading, however I would suggest you use caution when converting from berdan to boxer. If your cases are machined to allow for a standard sized boxer I say go for it, but I would not use MacTeutates suggestion of using locktight to keep the boxer primer from falling out because the hole is to big. MPO this is stupid and your just asking for trouble... of course I was always taught not to play with fire.

Hope some of these links help.

http://www.gswagner.com/mosin-nagant/scope/mnscope.html'>http://www.gswagner.com/mosin-nagant/scope/mnscope.html

 

Still not as elegant as a top mount, but with a split bridge, what else are you supposed to do?

 

 

http://www.gswagner.com/mosin-nagant/scope/mnscope.html

 

Folks rave about the Rock Solid mount. It's not as "graceful" as Steve Wagner's solution, but you can choose your rings. It's certainlt rigid.

Thanks Gun Nutty, but you posted Steve Wagner's link twice, can you post the link for the Rock Solid mount you talked about? Thanks!

I do really like the Steve Wagner's link... I may try it.

I got a Mosin 91/30 a couple weeks back and I'm doing research on what others have done with their Mosins. Right now I'm still cleaning off all the cosmoline so I have time to figure out what all I want to do with it.

The problem I'm running into is I can't find a scope mount I like. I seem to find only 2 for sale, one you have to drill and tap the top front of the receiver then the back just hangs... I don't like this because I don't want to drill the top of my receiver and ruin the serial# and other markings and besides with the back of it just hanging off I doubt that's good for keeping the scope zeroed. Then the other I find is way up on the barrel and sits where the rear receiver is and looks kinda rediculious since it also has rails on each side (I'm not one for the whole tactical thing).

I want a scope mount that is solid and will hold the scope over the receiver. So far the only scope mount I've seen that accomplishes this is the ones that were made for the original sniper Mosin Nagants. Does anyone know if someone makes a scope mount like this that will hold standard modern scopes, or do you have the blueprints and I can see if I can make one???

The other question I had is I noticed that someone used a crappy cutting tool and just quickly (and VERY sloppy) cut in the serial number on the bottom of the magazine, the but plate, the bolt, and the bayonet. I guess they did that to "increase the value" of the rifle so it looked like everything had matching serial numbers... but its very obvious this was done recently. I would like to remove these crappy scratched in cuts because they make the rifle look really bad. Do you think I could easily dremel these markings off with a stone or something? The markings are really light, like scratches, if needed I can post pictures.

Lastly someone also put in a new serial number on the side of my receiver along with other markings (another stupid recent change to the rifle), these are much deeper and by far more (thankfully) professionally done then the crappy scratch cuts. Does this need to be there? Can I remove them legally? I don't care to much about them but it would be nice to restore the receiver back to its glory days.

Thanks for the help.