fire forming

[ken98k]

Anyone done any fire forming? I need to send some fired cases to Lee so they can make up a set of dies. The caliber is 6.5x53R dutch.

Here's my plan; Charge 5 cases with 20 grains of H110, then fill the case to within 1/8" of the mouth with compacted corn meal, then top off with elmers glue.

[Dr.Hess]

I've not done fire forming, but my friend did some time ago.  He was into really heavy stuff.  He had a rifle in "something big Ackley Improved" and had to fire form the cases.  If I recall, whatever the parent case was, he just loaded up a slightly reduced charge of the regular powder and bullet for the round and shot them.  They blew out nicely to the chamber size.  20GR of H110 is a pretty hot pistol load.  That's a fast burning powder.  I use around 13GR for my 300BO, and 14GR will pop primers out.

Here are some loads for 6.5x50 Japanese.  I don't have anything for the Dutch round:

Consolidated_Load_Data

Cartridge	BulletWtinGn	Bullet	Powder	Grains	Velocity	Pressure	LoadSource
6.5 x 50mm Japanese	100	CAST: Lyman #266305 100gr	IMR 4198	27	2352		CastLoads L1
6.5 x 50mm Japanese	100	100 GR. SIE SP	H4895	37	2717		HodgdonWebsite-RifleData
6.5 x 50mm Japanese	100	100 GR. SIE SP	H335	38	2670		HodgdonWebsite-RifleData
6.5 x 50mm Japanese	120	CAST: Lyman #266324 120gr	IMR 4198	24	2057		CastLoads L1
6.5 x 50mm Japanese	120	120 GR. SPR SP	H4895	35	2505		HodgdonWebsite-RifleData
6.5 x 50mm Japanese	120	120 GR. SPR SP	H335	37	2597		HodgdonWebsite-RifleData
6.5 x 50mm Japanese	130	CAST: Lyman #266455 130gr	IMR 4198	27	2145		CastLoads L1
6.5 x 50mm Japanese	140	140 GR. NOS PART	H4895	34	2407		HodgdonWebsite-RifleData
6.5 x 50mm Japanese	140	140 GR. NOS PART	H335	35	2414		HodgdonWebsite-RifleData
6.5 x 50mm Japanese	145	CAST: Lyman #266469 145gr	IMR 4198	26	2159		CastLoads L1
6.5 x 50mm Japanese	160	160 GR. HDY RN	H4895	32	2334		HodgdonWebsite-RifleData
6.5 x 50mm Japanese	160	160 GR. HDY RN	H335	33	2341		HodgdonWebsite-RifleData

 

 

[ken98k]

Maybe I'll start with 10 grns H110 and see how that works.

[gun nutty]

Lee won't take a Cerrosafe casting?

I've done fireforming with 10 grains of fast powder, topped off with cornmeal, and sealed with paraffin (actually, I jammed the case mouth into an old bar of soap and "broke" it off).

I've seen Unique, Red Dot, Bullseye, W231, and just about every fast burning powder as recommended. You're not building much pressure.

I will note that case shoulders tend to be very rounded.

[ken98k]

This is new brass, made for this gun. I have some fired steel cases but the want brass.  

[Dr.Hess]

Ken,

   Here's some 6.5x53R Dutch brass for sale:

https://forums.gunboards.com/showthread.php?1065317-WTS-Boxer-Brass-for-Obsolete-Military-rounds-Vetterli-Werndl-Siamese-Dutch

 

20 for $33.

[ken98k]

On 1/23/2019 at 6:28 AM, Dr.Hess said:

Ken,

   Here's some 6.5x53R Dutch brass for sale:

https://forums.gunboards.com/showthread.php?1065317-WTS-Boxer-Brass-for-Obsolete-Military-rounds-Vetterli-Werndl-Siamese-Dutch

 

20 for $33.

Thanks for the heads-up!

[AzRednek]

Years ago prior to the internet I was having trouble fire forming. I wrote RCBS and they suggested the best method is two firings. One as suggested here with a mild charge and the second loaded to 90% of max. I was forming 7X57, 8MM, 7.7 Jap and 7.65 Argie from trimmed 30/06 blanks. Unlike your rimmed cartridge mine all headspace on the shoulder. RCBS suggested to push the shoulder back just enough that the bolt closes with slight resistance from the cartridge's shoulder jammed tight against rifle's chamber wall. If I could get the shoulder tight against the chamber I could skip the mild first shot. 

The method worked well for me. Previously I had a mis-hap fire forming a 765 Argie. I didn't give the powder charge enough ooomph, gas sneaked by the shoulder and the non vented hot charge blew back into my face literally frying my shooter glasses lens. I did the Argies with an old set, probably 1950's vintage Pacific brand dies. At the time Pacific sizing dies were to be screwed into press, placing a folded business card or matchbook cover between sizing die and shell holder for the proper seating depth. I was unaware, screwed in die so it touched shell holder. My guess between bumping shoulder back a bit to far and a powder charge not delivering enough pressure to swell the brass enough to seal the cartridge's shoulder. The 91 Argies did not have the vent hole and the burning powder charge blew back into my face. 

I've never fire formed rimmed brass but have fire formed belted mag, 300 Winnie down to 308 Norma and up to 458. I'm assuming your parent cartridge's rim is headspacing properly and sealing up the chamber. I suggest a heavier powder charge that will expand the entire cartridge tightly against the chamber wall. Not being familiar with your Dutch cartridge but I assume it is a bottle neck cartridge. If you can somehow bump the brass' shoulder tight against the wall. It might aid in expanding the brass. If the cartridge shoulder of the parent cartridge has to be moved forward. One or two mild charge firings before heating it up to near max. 

If the proper brass you might be buying is once fired. I suggest neck sizing only and firing in your chamber before sending the brass to Lee. There might be some slight differences in your chamber compared to the previous rifle. Years ago I discovered 30/30 brass fired in a Winchester would not chamber in my Marlin. I was neck sizing with a Lee Loader. Brass fired in the Winchester moved the shoulder slightly forward a tad deeper than my Marlin's chamber. I solved that problem months later by buying a press and full length sizing the brass. 

[Dr.Hess]

The Winchester probably had headspace issues, if I had to GUESS, Az.

Ken, I don't recall if he listed his email address.  If you need me to forward your email there via that site's PM system, let me know.  It took me like 3 weeks to get registered on there.  They are not anywhere near as efficient as we are here.

[Dr.Hess]

You really need a 500S&W and a 50AE, Karl.  And maybe one of those 45-70 revolvers.  Just Because. 

[AzRednek]

Karl, was it you I swapped with sending you the 7MM STW brass?? During the height of the Obozo shortages I reformed the STW brass into other belted mags as the length is pretty long. The dealer I was getting it from was selling it at pre shortage prices. I converted the majority of it to 458 Winnie as I couldn't beg, barrow or steal the brass or ammo at the time. Been a few years but the dealer finally wised up on the price. Just like you, shooter next to me at Avery's a few years ago was was really pissed he could no longer buy the basic brass. I showed him my 458 from the STW brass and he seemed to think it was long enough.  

[Dr.Hess]

Someone makes one. 

http://www.bighornarmory.com/catalog/big-horn-armory-products/model-89-carbine-18inch-500-sandw-2/

 

[Dr.Hess]

No, didn't see that.  He wants $184 for a 7x57 reamer.  I bought a used one that was from the Winchester factory in Connecticut on ebay for fifty.

I have no idea what those things sell for, but on http://pacifictoolandgauge.com/834-actions-barreled-actions

they are all in the 1 large range.  You can get 3 whole Remington action, barrel, stock, sights, probably a scope of some kind, recoil pad, and a warranty for that at Walmart.

[Dr.Hess]

The local Walmart suprcenters all sell rifles and shotguns.  No handguns, and no "modern sporting carbines" since a few years ago.  Plenty of bolt action, lever action, etc.  A Remington bolt action with a scope, 7xx series, sells for under $400, and I've seen them on sale in the past year well under $350.