Reloading Equipment

[724wd]

anyone use electronic powder scales? how's the accuracy on the more economically priced models? i just dont know if i can trust something that i can't see it working...

 

also, does everyone use powder measurers to throw the charge and check every so often, or do you just measure each load? i have in the past just measured each load, but that's pretty time consuming. i've never used the powder thrower, and again, a little untrusting...

 

and lastly, i am trying to develop a load for my 30/06 that doesnt like factory ammo much, and wondering how many of each load do you make up? 10? more? Less? i am working with 180 grain sierras and also want to make up some 150s or 165s... i need to get the rifle shooting back on the paper after a scope change... should i go back to the factory loads to sighting purposes and then switch to hand loads? when developing a load and loading a small number (how many again?), how many steps do you take between starting loads and max loads? does it all depend on how the accuracy goes and the pressure signatures? and for a guy without a chronograph, do i just check case expansion and other pressure signals for safety?

[z1r]

Ok some input:

 

I throw all my charges. Now, there are basically two ways I do this:

 

First, for pistol cartridges or maybe more importantly for powders that meter easily I throow them then check every tenth one to ensure nothing has changed.

 

Second, for extruded powders that don't meter too well I will throw a light charge into the pan then trickle in more until the required weight is met.

 

You can tell that I like easily metered powders when possible. I will put up with stuff like 4350 when I have to have the velocity.

 

As for working up loads I used to do five each for evry incremental powder increase. then I spoke to a guy at Sierra who said load one of each weight up to the max shown. Shot then each and stop when you hit max. If you hit pressure signs along the way. Back off and start your load development there. Once you find the approximate powder charge then you can begin you accuracy development in earnest. I find you need at least five at each charge weight for accuracy testing. This will give a good idea of promising loads. then if two or more show equal promise you can load more of each to find a winner. hope that made sense.

 

I like to use factory loads or old loads that I do not want to breakdown (provided they are safe for the gun) for getting on paper. Or, you can set target at 50 yds and use those one each loads to both get on paper and test where pressure limits are.

 

[Racepres]

I also "throw" all charges. Just this A.M. I was looking for a cast bullet load for my 222. Since I already use alot of unique, I went w/ a charge that was published, and could be thrown consistently from my selected lee powder dipping device. As measured and verified by a pact bbk electronic scale. That said , I love the pact, as it is inexpensive, and reliable, for the last 12years anyway... If ya wonder if it is OK, just drop the check weight [they come w/ it] on 'er. or just put a known bullet [i use a .224 55gr] on it to check... Good luck.. MV

BTW I loaded 10 cause I am confident that they are safe, I am after accuracy.

[roscoedoh]

724,

 

I use my Dad's Lyman electronic powder trickler and a Lee turret press. Starting from scratch with cases that need decapped, lubed, sized, etc. I can load about fifty rounds an hour give or take a few minutes. I have used a manual trickler and balance scale to measure out loads by hand before and I thoroughly enjoy the electronic powder measures. The Lyman model even handles the longer extruded powders like IMR 4350 with relative speed.

 

I highly recommend them.

 

Jason

[AzRednek]

anyone use electronic powder scales? how's the accuracy on the more economically priced models? i just dont know if i can trust something that i can't see it working...

 

I bought a cheapie, very inaccurate and unreliable. It will only give readings in even number or .5, nothing in between. Balance scales of all brands I've used are very accurate. Keep the bearing surfaces clean and oiled and make sure a draft from a fan or open window isn't affecting your readings.

 

also, does everyone use powder measurers to throw the charge and check every so often, or do you just measure each load? i have in the past just measured each load, but that's pretty time consuming. i've never used the powder thrower, and again, a little untrusting...

 

I use bushings for pistol and small rifle charges like 30 Carbine and 223. For high powered rifle charges I use the powder measurer or scoops to get it close and trickle the remainder into the scale's pan. If you are loading max or near max you just have to take the time to scale every load. If you bump or move your scale you have to re-set the zero, good idea to check the zero occasionaly even if you haven't moved it.

and lastly, i am trying to develop a load for my 30/06 that doesnt like factory ammo much, and wondering how many of each load do you make up? 10? more? Less?

 

Depends a lot on what I'm loading and how many components I have on hand. I prefer 2 or 3 and work up in .5 increments. If I'm doing a belted mag I try to keep it to a minimum to avoid the punishing recoil. My BAR 7 Mag was real finicky, it showed signs of high pressure way under the published max (70's manual) but was unreliable if I backed off to far. Don’t recall the number but I loaded several in .5 increments until I found the sweet spot.

 

 

 

i am working with 180 grain sierras and also want to make up some 150s or 165s... i need to get the rifle shooting back on the paper after a scope change... should i go back to the factory loads to sighting purposes and then switch to hand loads?

 

I would load at about 90% of published max to get it on paper then work my way up from there. I start at 25 yards or less to get it on paper. Don't be surprised when you shoot a little cluster under the max load then see it spread as you approach the max. As far as I'm concerened 1-300 FPS faster isn't worth acheiving if the group size opens up. An advantage to loading under max is your reloads are usually safe in another rifle and if time is short and you have to make a slight change such as primer brands or same weight bullets of a different style such as 180 gr round nose instead of pointed or even a different brand of the same weight. With under max loads you don't have to worry about temperature. If temps soar at the range to 100+ and you developed a max load at 60 degrees or less it could put you over the top.

 

when developing a load and loading a small number (how many again?), how many steps do you take between starting loads and max loads? does it all depend on how the accuracy goes and the pressure signatures? and for a guy without a chronograph, do i just check case expansion and other pressure signals for safety?

 

The primer is the first place I look for high pressure. Does anybody know a link to pictures?? A chrony is vitually useless for checking maximum pressure. I'll look and see if I can find any pictures. Don't rely on, it but trust your intuition. If it didn’t feel right such as abnormal high or low recoil, difficult extraction and even unusual report and/or muzzle flash should send up the caution flag.

 

[724wd]

great info here guys, thanks! i know what too much pressure looks like. my 270 has pushed a few primers in it's day. one was just gone. i don't know where it could have gone...

 

anyway, thanks again. i was planning on using 4350 seeing that gave good results on the different bullets and weights i planned on using... i guess i'll short charge and trickle... which is what i do with my 270. i guess i need to dig out the trickler.

 

i have another box of factory remington 165s. i'll put those on paper and check the new scope, then try some of the test loads.

 

again, you guys rock!

[Guest Guest_MauserILike_*]

I use the Ken Waters method for pressure. If avaliable I fire factory rounds in the rifle and I measure each round above the web to see the starting diameter of the case then fire several shots getting a measurment of the web area off of each round. Average them out and that is the max I will want the diameter to strech with my hand loads. Of course I usally don't even get very close to the max strech, and find the accuracy load a little bit before it. Of course I don't think this works with cases that are just being neck sized. I full length size my cases. I load mainly for hunting and fun. So I go for maximum reliabilty. The cases won't last as long maybe 6 or 7 shooting instead of 10 but I have plenty of brass for the calibers I shoot so it is not that big of a deal. I have Ken Waters Pet Loads which is a really good book and he uses this method of pressure reading on about every write up he made for Handloader. This is an shortened version of how I test for pressure not having his book here at work. I would recommend you get the book and figure your own method based on his. Not based on mine .. I am sure the steps are a little more detailed on how he determins his max strech point but I can't rememeber them exactly. I usally have to look them up before I do them every time.

He also used Chrony reading to determine his max loads. So I am guessing that putting the two together would be a better way than one alone. Where once velocity starts to flatten out .. Meaning if you were testing loads in .5 gr steps. and the fist four steps you were getting an 50 fps increase in velocity per step up. and on the fifth and sixth step the velocity increase was 15 fps. I would wager the four load would be considered my max load.

Again If someone wants to clarify anything I am say feel free. I use the case expansion and never exceeed maximum charge weights in loading manuals. I am a pansy when it comes to pushing the envelope. I like my ability to breath and see to much to chance pushing the velocity of a bullet so I can reduce the amount it drops by 1 in. MIL

[AzRednek]

Can't argue with anything Waters says or does. If anybody as as the saying goes, "been there done that" chances are good Waters has. I sure wish his book isn't so expensive. I've come close a few times to buying it. Waters is to reloading what Ackley was to sporterizing.

 

[Downwindtracker2]

I don't mind IMR powders, I burn 4350 and 4064 for practice and target,but I use a Lee Perfect Powder Measure.I can get within five or less sticks. The trick is hesitate while the tube is loading,then dump.Always use the same action and force.

 

For a good hunting load in a 30-06,you are looking for flexablity,one grain or one grain down doesn't change the accuracy much if any.Then temperature,case size,primer lot # won't affect you much. Remeber this a hunting load,not target.So for a 30-06 with all that data out there,I would go in two grain steps but load six,so you get two groups on the same target. Allow your barrel to cool all the way to cold between groups.It goes without saying use slow ,safe,casefilling,powder.

 

When I did load development with 338-06 and 264 I went in one grain steps,toward the top ,1/2grain. I chronyed every shot,this gave me an idea of where I was pressure wise,velocity is a product of pressure,and how the powder was reacting. There is simply no data for those powders in these calibers.

 

The classic 30-06 powder is a 4350,but if one of the slower powder such as a 4831 will work , all the better,more velocity at the same pressures. In that same vein, a case full of RL-22 is good for 2800f/s at 60,000 psi. But it doesn't always work.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Critter183]

I weight every charge, every time. I tried to justify using a powder thrower by saying, ok, I'll use that for plinking ammo, but, I like to hit what I'm aiming at, even when plinking, so my plinking ammo needs to be as accurate as my serious ammo, I suppose. I mean what's the fun of missing? lol

 

I do usually use factory ammo to get the rifle on paper, than then start with my handloads. I never worked up a 30-06 load, but if I did, using your 180 gr for example, with say IMR 4350, my Sierra book (old 2nd edition) lists minimum at 48.7 and max at 56.0. I never start at minimum. Maybe I'm impatient or just don't want my bullets going that slow, but I usually start at some middlepoint, in this case it would be 52.3 which the book says will yield 2600fps. Now I'll load 20 rounds, 5 at the start point, 5 at the max, and 5 each of equal steps between my start load and max load. In this case that would be maybe 53.5 and then 54.8.

 

By firing all four sets in order, if I see improvement all the way through, and the best is the max, I'd probably just stop there if it was adequate, and if the cases show no pressure problems. If the best was the third batch of five and it dropped off with the max, I would work up 5 loads of the third batch, and five each of three incriments between the third and the max, and do it again.

 

Normally I'm going to the range with 2 or 3 rifles and doing any more than 5 of each incriment and more than 4 incriments would be prohibitive, timewise.

 

Now, why don't you have a chronograph? Could it be the same reason I didn't have one til last week? I thought they were a huge $ investment, and never bothered to look into them. Last week, I found a Chrony Chronograph for about $75 to the door from EA Brown.

 

I haven't tried it yet, but it seems like a nice machine.

 

 

 

 

[Critter183]

i know what too much pressure looks like. my 270 has pushed a few primers in it's day. one was just gone. i don't know where it could have gone...

 

That might be a problem. To lose a primer or even push one out significantly, the head of the case has to be rather far off the bolt face, no? What might cause that? A rough chamber holding the case from moving back to the bolt face when fired? Loose head spacing? Both?

 

 

[Racepres]

Weigh each and every charge?? Do you weigh each and every case and primer and bullet?? And neck turn, and check concentricity, and 1/2 neck size and orient cases?? Sorry but I have been "throwing" charges for over 20 years, and have no intention of changing. Currently I consistently get 2MOA from hastily reloaded [visually inspected only] cast bullets, I don't shoot much better than that these days, cause 1] I don't see as good as I used to. 2] I don't spend 1/2 the time at it that I used to!!! To each their own on this and I am sure that 2 MOA aint nearly good enough for some, but my steel targets don't know the diffference any more than my deer this year knew !!! Don't take this as flamin' just sayin' I enjoy shooting much more than loading these days!!! MV

[Jimro]

I haven't bought one yet, but the precision reloading crowd loves the PACT dispenser/scale setup.

 

Jimro

[Racepres]

My shooting partner, who loves that measuring and such, has the lyman dispenser/weighing device. He loves it! I have watched it work, and must admit it beats the butt off of weighing on a balance beam anyday! Seems he gets weighed charges as fast as most can dispense them from the typical measure!! Very cool I must admit.. MV

[Critter183]

Weigh each and every charge??

 

Yup.

 

Do you weigh each and every case and primer and bullet??

 

Cases and bullets, yes, for serious ammo. No for plinking. I don't think case and bullet weight effect accuracy enough to make me miss when I plink. hehehe

 

And neck turn, and check concentricity, and 1/2 neck size and orient cases??

 

Not yet, cuz I get mine to work well enough without doing that, but I think I may try to see if I can see any difference.

 

Don't take this as flamin' just sayin' I enjoy shooting much more than loading these days!!! MV

 

No flame taken. I don't get to shoot as much as I used to so I spend more time reloading. It keeps me close to the sport that I love.

 

I like cast bullet matches too. When I load for those, I use the same routine, again cuz it's something I like to do at night when I'm bored.

 

I should explain that where I live, I have no cable TV, a mountian blocking my way to direct tv, no wife, kid stays mostly at the ex's house these days... in other words, I have no life. lol

 

So I read, play on the computer and reload, especially when the days get short and cold weather moves in.

[Doble Troble]

Critter,

 

Quit bragging about the life that most just dream about!

 

I got a RCBS automatic powder measure and scale a few years ago as a present. Its up there on the top five presents list. The powder measure wore-out or something this summer and I completely killed it by trying to fix it (my Bubba skills aren't wasted on just rifles). I immediately replaced it with the Pact (its exactly the same as the old RCBS model except that its grey instead of green) version which was on sale for something like $100 bucks. Even with the first one crapping-out I feel like I'm WAY ahead. I use it to weigh every rifle cartridge - I agree with Critter, shooting time is too short to load less than the best ammo you're capable of - unless of course its pistol ammo. Powder measures were meant for handguns. The way I shoot handguns I don't need no stinkin' good loads.

[Racepres]

Holy Sht batman!! You need some more tedious labors.... You should consider pouring your own cast bullets!!! Seriously, back when I had more time [between wives] I cast lots of 'em... I still shoot 95% cast bulleted loads! Yea I break down and buy some from a local guy [single] who does a good job now. I really enjoy them, and there was a huge amount of satisfaction in shooting well w/ a projectile that I had devised!! Oh yea!!! Cheap too!!!! MV

[Critter183]

Holy Sht batman!! You need some more tedious labors.... You should consider pouring your own cast bullets!!!

 

Funny you should mention that. My brother is in the tire business, and I just asked him to start saving his old lead wheel weights for me. lol

[AzRednek]

Funny you should mention that. My brother is in the tire business, and I just asked him to start saving his old lead wheel weights for me. lol

 

Bullet casting is addicting, rewarding but sometimes frustrating. Develop a perfect load, cast and load the same a year or two later and it is all over the target. The challenge is trying to remember what you did different. I've cast thousands with straight wheel weights. Try locating some tin, you don't need to add alot to the mix but the lead flows and fills the mold better. Earlier this year I started messing with gas checks, big improvement but there are many bullet casters out there that claim the opposite. Often a cast bullet works well in one gun and dismal in another of the same caliber. If you just have to have max or near max velocities, be prepared to spend many a night scrubbing barrels. Get used to wearing long sleeves, gloves and most important safety glasses. It is not a matter of if, it is more like when you will have an accident. Don't even think about casting unless you have a dry place either outside or an inside area with plenty of ventilation and preferably an exaust fan. Lead fumes can be deadly and can easily make somebody stupid, inflame body joints and muscles weak if the lead toxicity is allowed to build up in one's bloodstream.

[Critter183]

Bullet casting is addicting, rewarding but sometimes frustrating...

 

Thanks for the good advice!

 

I heard that wheel weight lead makes good bullet casting material. Adding tin does seem to be important.

 

This guy has some good info on casting bullets:

 

CAST BULLETS IN THE LEE ENFIELD RIFLE by David Southall

 

I liked his recommendation of using 50/50 lead/tin solder to add tin to the mix. Also, he drops his bullets from the mold into a water pail to harden them. Ever hear of that trick?

 

I have a great spot outdoors for doing stuff like this. My garage is cinder block with a poured concrete roof, which serves as a huge patio. It's a perfect place for good weather outdoor projects, especially since it has a nice view of the lake. hehehe

[Racepres]

The 50/50 solder trick is actually better than picking up tin at the shows, cause ya know what you are getting!! I dropped most all of my bullets from the mold into a pail of water.. Just be very careful that ya don't get water anywhere near molten lead. I got careless once, somehow got molten lead and water together!!! Man what a mess... there was splatters of lead virtually everywhere!! Don't feel like a safety nazi when ya wear safety glasses when casting!! Especially if yer as clumsey as me!! BTW it seems that lubri-sizers are getting less expensive at the shows!! MV