I'm Going Insane

[Brenden]

Here is the problem.......i have a j.c higgins 30-06, have fired factory stuff in it w/no problem....i go to reload with nosler 165 b-tips....no go. No matter how deep i seat the bullet, bolt is hard to close. So i figured it was my brass that is too long, (i use lee gauges w/the cutter), all are with in the lee's specs, so i took a file and shaved more brass off, i mean alot, bolt still closes hard on the brass w/no bullet in place. I've looked at my brass, and seems to have a small dent on the shoulder when extracted. Is my resize die adjusted incorectly or what, i've tried everything. I've looked in the barrel, no obstructions, whats going on here? Its prob. something stupid that i'm over looking so take it easy on me

 

Brenden aka the kid with all the problems

 

.....the dies are rcbs....if ya'll are wondering

[BradD]

Brenden,

 

I've had that experience. It usually results from hard brass.

 

If you're up to it try annealing the cases and then resizing. That frequently works, but not always.

 

If that doesn't call to you, try some different brass.

 

We know that your headspace didn't change so that doesn't leave many options. Reshot brass brings problems in different guns.

 

Good luck,

Brad

[AzRednek]

I suspect the shoulder is rubbing against the chamber. Try smoking a case with a candle, unprimed and no powder of coarse after you resize it and seat a bullet. Chamber it and see where it is rubbing. Another thing might be to much crimp. A heavy crimp can cause the shoulder to swell.

If the shoulder is rubbing and it is not caused by excessive crimp the sizing die needs to be adjusted. If you are using a Lee sizing die try turning it in until it makes solid contact with the shell holder.

 

If you are using another brand of sizing die, move the ram all the way up, fold a business card once and screw the die in using the business card as a gauge between the bottom of the die and the shell holder. Screw the die until it is good and tight against the folded card. The de-capping pin will penetrate the card. If you don't have a card handy, a single layer (not folded) of a matchbook cover also works well but turn it untill it is snug, not as tight as the folded card.

 

Also double check and make sure you're using the correct number shell holder and you're seating the bullet deep enough. If you smoke a case, smoke the seated bullet as well and look for signs of contact.

[Thor]

Can I jump in? Sounds to me like you have a headspace problem. The dies are not setting the shoulder back and headspace is too tight. Factory brass should not be hardened after one firing.

 

There is something else that needs to be looked at. Shellholders can make a difference. I have one RCBS shellholder and also a Lee shellholder on my Swede setup. The two shellholders have different thicknesses and result in different setback/headspace. Suits me as I like a partial setback instead of full setback. By using the one with less setback, my reloads give about a .003" headspace instead of .007".

 

Stony Point used to make a gauge toolset with attachments for different calibers, designed to measure the distance from base of the brass to a midway point on the shoulder. By checking new brass versus fireformed brass, you get an indication of headspace. I say "used to make". I can not find them on vendors or their website anymore, but do find Hornady has a similar setup, albeit, about twice the price of the old Stony Point set. Such is Free Enterprise and profit making.

[Brenden]

Now i'm really going insane....its been a long day and just got home.....but anywho....thanks for all the suggestions, i'll try a little bit of everything and see what happens. Re-check my components, re-check my self and see how it goes..thanks to you all.

Brenden

[z1r]

Here is the problem.......i have a j.c higgins 30-06, have fired factory stuff in it w/no problem....i go to reload with nosler 165 b-tips....no go. No matter how deep i seat the bullet, bolt is hard to close. So i figured it was my brass that is too long, (i use lee gauges w/the cutter), all are with in the lee's specs, so i took a file and shaved more brass off, i mean alot, bolt still closes hard on the brass w/no bullet in place. I've looked at my brass, and seems to have a small dent on the shoulder when extracted. Is my resize die adjusted incorectly or what, i've tried everything. I've looked in the barrel, no obstructions, whats going on here? Its prob. something stupid that i'm over looking so take it easy on me

 

Brenden aka the kid with all the problems

 

.....the dies are rcbs....if ya'll are wondering

 

How are you setting your dies?

 

About the only time i've had the problem you describe is when I have resized brass fired in one rifle then try to chamber it in another. If the first chamber is oversize the brass will not always be resized enough. RCBS makes small bass dies just for this reason. However, this also results from an out of round chamber or an oversized chamber. Have you tried chambering the once fired brass by itself? It should go in no problem. If it doesn't, you could have chamber issues.

 

[Brenden]

I've tried chambering the once fired brass by itself, bolt closes hard on just brass. I can't see having a chamber problem, factory stuff goes in just fine. I don't know what to think, need to go fiddle with it some more. I just set my dies like rcbs says,run ram all the way up, touch the shell holder then back off a 1/4 to a 1/2 turn. Beats me. my guess is that the shoulder isn't being set back enough on the brass, or my lee chamber guage isn't right, need to measure it and compare to the standard oal. What about trying to fire form the brass, but this won't do me any good if the shoulder isn't set back enough will it? i dunno.

Brenden

[AzRednek]

As a last resort. Run the sizing die deep into the press, before the ram cams over or the press can get into a bind and knocked out of alignment. Resize it by raising the ram until good solid contact is made between the shell holder and the bottom of the die. Make certain the brass is well lubed as extraction from the die might be difficult. Seat a bullet into the empty sized cartridge WITH NO BULLET CRIMP and see if it doesn't help. If it does, indicating a tight chamber you can get RCBS to make a sizing die to your rifle's specs for no charge. Are you using an RCBS brand shell holder?? Do you have accesss to other 30/06's?? I'm also assuming your Higgins is a bolt action and not an auto or pump.

 

We may have over looked the obvious, have you cleaned the rifle's chamber?? If you don't have a US GI chamber brush use a 45 ca brushl and give the chamber a good cleaning. Use a flashlight and be certain the chamber is impeccably clean.

 

[ken98k]

As previously stated, You may be stretching the case when you pull it from the resize die.

Try lubing the inside of the neck with LEE case lube.

Kenny

[Thor]

I just set my dies like rcbs says,run ram all the way up, touch the shell holder then back off a 1/4 to a 1/2 turn.

 

I think we just found your problem. You have been using the procedure for bullet seating to set up your resizing die. For resizing, set the ram with just a little bit of pressure against the die. Leave it alone. By backing off the way you have been doing, you are not resizing fully. You are actually partial resizing, and either partially setting the shoulder back, or with as much as you have backed off, not even setting it back any at all. I have found that generally when you do that, you have the problem you are having. Been there, done that. That was one of my early lessons, as I was trying to neck size with standard dies, and after 3-4 shots, the brass was so hardened, I could barely close the bolt. When I finally went back to full sizing, it took a stronger press. I broke the handle in my Lee Anniversary press, ended up resizing with a newly aquired iron frame RCBS press.

 

Partial resizing is okay, but you need to master full resizing first. And any time you try partial resizing and have problems like you are having, go back to full resizing, ram against the die with just a little bit of tension, not backed off. If you want to neck size, get a neck sizing die.

 

Try what I'm saying and see if that doesn't solve your problems.

[Doble Troble]

I think Thor and Az probably have it figured-out - and hope so.

 

It does seem strange that you'd have to set the shoulder back after just one firing in the same chamber - unless like Z suspects something is wrong with the chamber.

 

Have you tried chambering a once fired but not resized case? If it goes and the resized one doesn't then it's something about the sizing that's causing the problem. If this is the case I'd be thinking that maybe you have a tight necked chamber and the die is expanding it too much (like Kar98 was getting at).

 

I know this situation bites at the moment, but it's an EXCELLENT opportunity to learn about chambers, headspace and reloading and how they all work together - for us all - so make sure to post about how you fix this which you are sure to do as long as you don't give up.

[AzRednek]

I have to disagree with Thor. Lee's sizing dies I believe, instructions specify contact between the die and shell holder. Other brands such as RCBS's instructions specify a slight gap and you were correct backing it off. I recommended direct contact between the die and shell holder with your RCBS die only as a last resort. Do not assume all RCBS or other brands sizing dies be set that way. It is always best to follow manufacturer's instructions. Seating dies are best set by running in the die until the brass' neck makes contact with the crimp groove, then back it off. If a crimp is desired in the seating operation and all the brass has been trimmed to the same length. The die is best set with a bullet seated in a cartridge. Bear in mind, improperly set seating dies or to heavy crimp will cause problems with chambering. Untll you get the chambering problem licked I suggest bullets be seated with no crimp. Back off your seating die and run the stem in a little deeper.

[z1r]

I've tried chambering the once fired brass by itself, bolt closes hard on just brass. I can't see having a chamber problem, factory stuff goes in just fine. I don't know what to think, need to go fiddle with it some more. I just set my dies like rcbs says,run ram all the way up, touch the shell holder then back off a 1/4 to a 1/2 turn. Beats me. my guess is that the shoulder isn't being set back enough on the brass, or my lee chamber guage isn't right, need to measure it and compare to the standard oal. What about trying to fire form the brass, but this won't do me any good if the shoulder isn't set back enough will it? i dunno.

Brenden

 

 

Ok, are you using full length dies or neck size dies?

 

If full length dies then put the ram in the up position, screw the die in until it touchs the ram then screw it in another 1/8 turn. But,

since you say that your once fired unsized brass won't chamber then my guess is that your chamber is either generous, out of round, or both. A small base die will most likely solve the problem but that chamber will work brass quickly.

 

[Thor]

I have to disagree with Thor...

always best to follow manufacturer's instructions.

I'm at a loss as to why different manufacturers would have different procedures on something so basic. My primary teacher was Nosler and Lyman. I've used 1/2 dozen different brands of dies through the years and always use this same procedure and it works for me. Another great source is The ABC's of Reloading by C. Rodney James. He recommends kissing the shellholder to the die, then go 1/8" tighter. I usually just go by feel at that point.

 

Assuming that Brenden's problem is truly tight shoulder headspace, (and not a chamber problem as has been suggested) I would be inclined to try bumping the die a little tighter against the shellholder. You'll have to admit that it would set the shoulder back further.

 

If it is a chamber problem, z1r's solution is the only way. The problem is not in the shoulder but in the body of the brass versus a possibly out of round chamber. Small base dies will squeeze in the body of the brass a little tighter so it will fit the out of round chamber. Yeah, it will work brass and you will have short life of your brass.

 

IF, I say IF, there is a chamber problem... WOW, the real solution is gunsmith work. Lathe off a few thousandths of the breech and reream the chamber. Of course that would throw iron sights off and have to be reset. One solution creates another problem. Small base dies are a lot cheaper.

[z1r]

Either someone posted replies while I posted last or I simply missed reading a couple of replies. Sorry.

 

You are not properly sizing your brass. You are setting it up for partial resizing. However, that is not the cause of your problem. If once fired brass cannot be rechambered in the same gun it was fired in then there is a chamber problem. As I stated earlier, it is either too large, out of round, or both. Most likely it is simply generous. there is the possiblity that sinc eyou weren't full length sizing that once you do, your brass may chamber again. If it doesn't then you have two choices, get a small base sizer for about $30 or have the chamber fixed. Much more expensive.

 

My Dad had a Remington like that. Since he doesn't reload it isn't an issue. He only fires factory loads and the rifle shoots sub moa. But if he wanted to reload he would need to use a small base die.

 

 

 

 

[Thor]

Either someone posted replies while I posted last or I simply missed reading a couple of replies. Sorry.

I doubt you're missing any replies, I just think we are all trying to make our point. I think we're in sync, but it's going to be up to Brenden to figure it out and give the final answer.

 

I do wonder if a light touchup with a reamer would benefit without going too far and not touching the shoulder.

 

[Brenden]

allrighty now.... trying to remember what everyone has said and i need to give some more info here. Got to thinking last night, all this brass was fired out of a Win. model 70 that i now own. And i've re-sized it, ok....the brass won't even go into the wins chamber that it was fired out of. So, ither small base, or crank the die down on the shell holder. (I use lee shell holders by the way AZ.) Confuses the hell outta me. so that rules out chamber issues, correct? As for setting my die the way i do, i'm like az on this one, thats how the RCBS says and i've done it before on my 7mm cases and no problems. I don't crimp any of my rounds so that rules out a tight crimp problem. I havn't been able to get much done on this problem due to work, but thats whats sunday is for, re-loading. Chamber inspection comes out clean, but i'll go back again and go over it with a fine toothed comb. Kenny i use lee lube on my cases and usually put some lube in the first few necks and then when i get in the middle, say 25 if i'm doing 50 cases, i'll lube a few necks up as well. I don't know, never had this problem before but only had about a year expirience so doesn't give me much time to find all the wonderful obstacles of this hobby. Thanks to all again and will post back soon. now i need a drink.

Brenden

[Brenden]

I doubt you're missing any replies, I just think we are all trying to make our point. I think we're in sync, but it's going to be up to Brenden to figure it out and give the final answer.

 

 

damn Thor, put it all on me why don't ya.

Brenden

[Doble Troble]

Brenden,

 

Have you shot a store-bought round and NOT RESIZED IT and tried to chamber the UNSIZED case after firing?

 

This is a critical test that you need to do.

 

If it chambers OK (maybe with a bit of resistance) then there's something about your sizing that's causing the problem.

 

If it doesn't chamber then you PROBABLY have a chamber issue like Z is talking about and you need a small sizing die.

[Brenden]

Brenden,

 

Have you shot a store-bought round and NOT RESIZED IT and tried to chamber the UNSIZED case after firing?

 

This is a critical test that you need to do.

 

If it chambers OK (maybe with a bit of resistance) then there's something about your sizing that's causing the problem.

 

If it doesn't chamber then you PROBABLY have a chamber issue like Z is talking about and you need a small sizing die.

 

DT, sorry i missed that, i went back and read it later and realized i left you out, as for the ?, nope, not yet but will do. Thank you sir

Brenden

[z1r]

Jeez. Let's stop playing twenty guesses.

 

 

1) So the brass was not originally fired in this chamber?

 

If not, then this can be normal as one chamber can be larger than the other.

 

2) You are not full length resizng. Here are the RCBS instructions. http://www.rcbs.com/downloads/instructions...nstructions.pdf

I will quote in my best paraphrase: Screw the dies into the press until it touches the shellholder when the ram is up. then lower teh ram and turn the die IN 1/8 turn further. this eliminates all play.

 

Try this, then report back.

 

If you reload like you read these posts you are headed for trouble. Slow down, be carefull, live a long happy life.

 

 

 

[Brenden]

ok mike, then why is this.....i'f i'm not full sizing, then y won't the brass work in the gun it was fired in if its trimmed and so on? I resize this way in my 7mm and everything is fine? Seems i remember reading turn back 1/4 to 1/2 a turn, but i'm prob wrong cuz u have the info right there...maybe i'm getting mixed up with my lee die adjustments? Just wondering, and learning.

Brenden

[Doble Troble]

Brenden,

 

The resizing (even though its not "full") may be making your brass *bigger* (most likely in the neck, but there are other possibilities) than your chamber, leading to the chambering problems.

 

Your 7 mm chamber and dies seem like they get along great. It sounds like the problem your having is different chamber and die dimensions for your -06 - they somehow aren't compatible. Youneed to know what the compatibility problem is before you can fix it.

 

Try taking your resizing die apart and look at what each part does. The outside body should compresses the sides of the brass back down to specs. If the specs of your die are on the big side and the specs of your chamber are on the small side, it is possible that your die won't make it small enough, and brass is pliable enough that it can actually get bigger in a sizing die, particularly if you move the shoulder of the case back.

 

Now we're talking about the shoulder, the main outside body of the die will also push the shoulder of the brass back a bit if its screwed in far enough. "Far enough" again also depends on your chamber - all of this machining has variance in it. If your chamber is on the short side of the variance, and your sizing die is on the long side, then your sizing die may not move back the shoulder far enough to chamber. Again, there may be enough pliable brass moving in the die that it may actually get longer when you resize - a thousandths of an inch is all it takes to prevent chambering.

 

Finally your sizing die will expand the neck of the case to accept a new bullet. This expansion is done by the mandrel rod that exends through the die and has the decapper pin on the end. Its held in the die by a collet nut. If you remove this nut the mandrel rod comes with it and you'll see how it has a bevel so that the case neck can enter and be enlarged. If the mandrel enlarges the neck so that it becomes bigger than the neck of your chamber, then you won't be able to close the bolt on that reloaded cartridge.

 

This is why its important to know what happens if you don't resize.

 

There are so many possibilities.

 

Everyone's trying to help you sort through them. This is much more fun for everyone (except you) than it is to have the problem ourselves. And the reason we're all so interested is because we've all had similar problems ourselves, and because of your generousity we get to practice solving these problems through you, without really having to fix it.

 

So try the thousand things we're recommending and let us know what you discover - you get your problem solved and we get to have fun and feel like we helped.

 

Aren't win-win situations great?

[z1r]

ok mike, then why is this.....i'f i'm not full sizing, then y won't the brass work in the gun it was fired in if its trimmed and so on?

 

So, are you saying that the brass was fired ONCE in the same rifle, then you could not chamber it again? Your explanations seem all over the place so it is hard to tell what is really going on.

 

For now, I'll assume that the brass was fired once in the same rifle. So, why won't it rechamber? Well, an oversize chamber will cause this as I've said three times now. How? Well, brass expands upon firing, it also shrinks back a little. If your chamber is out of round the brass will expand in an ova or whatever shape the chamber isl. So, unless you get the case in exactly as it came out, it may not chamber. Is this the only asnswer, no, but in my experience it is the most likely.

 

 

[Thor]

damn Thor, put it all on me why don't ya.

Brenden

That's because you're a 1000 miles away and you're the only one who can figure it out. If you lived closer, we could get together and solve this problem.

 

Another reason that it's up to you is that there is a difference of opinion on a couple of issues. First of all, you've got to figure out if you have a reloading problem or a chamber problem. Secondly, on the procedure of setting up the press: I'm in agreement with z1r on this. He paraphrased it from website. I found a pamplet that comes in the box with a set. Here's a direct quote:

"Screw the full length Die into the press until the Die touches the shellholder when the shellholder is brought to the top of the press stroke. Be sure all play is removed from the press leverage system. to do this, adjust the die as above, lower the shell holder and set the die 1/8 to 1/4 turn further down so the press cams over center. Set the large lock ring."

Brenden, this is not what you are doing. You are not tightening the die "further", you are backing off.

 

I'm in full agreement with Doble Troble's advise to check the chamber, but you definitely need to change your reloading procedure. The procedure I have outlined is basic to ALL reloading, without respect to brand of dies, press or shellholder. Full sizing requires a tight "snap" as the ram cams over, not an air gap between die and shellholder.

 

I don't mean to sound harsh, but we all want to see you succeed as a young newby at reloading.