Sporter

[littlecanoe]

FC, I'll try again. I asked two questions on my last post but was mainly concerned with the question of a base action to build from.

 

I'm considering a sporter in 8x57. The actions that seem to be available for a good price are Czech 98/22's, Turkish '38's and Yugo '48's.

 

From the experience of this forum is one of these a better choice to base such a rifle on?

Does one have inherent advantages? or dis-advantages? over the others?

 

I'd like to use the original barrelled action to keep costs down. I'm thinking full length Mannlicher Style with open sights.

 

What do the masses say?

Steve

[Doble Troble]

If you're going keep the original barrel you've got to look for a good one. The half dozen or so M48s and 24/47s that I've had and shot haven't had very good bores and haven't shot very well. Every one has been rusted and/or gunked up almost beyond cleaning. Across the board they look like they were shot much more frequently than they were cleaned - with corrosive ammo.

 

That being said I like the intermediate action for some reason. It's just right for the 8 x 57.

 

I haven't had a 98/22 and so can't comment. The best Mauser shooters I've had have been Turks! Although some aren't very good at all others have been very respectable accuracy-wise. I'm almost embarrassed to admit that I must have debarreled at least 10 Turks by now and have cut into the barrels of most. About half have obviously off-center bores. I didn't keep records and so don't know if these were bad shooters, but I usually shoot them before dismantling and the ones with problems get dismantled.

 

Of course you want to build the most accurate rifle you can. The question is will you be happy with 3 or 4 " groups? You can hedge your bet by checking bores before you buy, but you may build it and find its not good enough. Then you have decisions to make. But the decisions are a big part of the fun.

[roscoedoh]

Little Canoe,

 

I got burned by the original barrel on my first sporter because I bought on in Good-Very Good condition from SOG. I don't blame them for the shootability or lack thereof from the M48 I purchased from them - they sold me what they advertised and I have done a good bit of business with them since - rather I got a bad taste in my mouth from buying a Good-Very Good and trying to will it into being something it wasn't.

 

I understand your concerns about trying to keep costs down by keeping the original barrel. They are valid, but I want to warn you that its highly possible to spend a lot more than what you really think you'd want to to finish the rifle out the way you'd like. Believe me...

 

That said, if I were you and was looking to retain the original barrel, here's what I'd do. I'd set about $300 bucks back and start looking for a NIB, Never Issued, or Excellent condition Mauser. Specifically, I'd look for a barreled Mauser action as it is possible that you'd get a price break for buying the barreled action alone. The Persian Mausers come to mind as I have read many glowing reports about them. Also look at the M48's from Mitchell's Mausers (though I question their WWII authenticity, I have heard good things about them as shooters). I would also start making the pawnshop/gun store/gunshow/auction circuit as I know just about everyone here has run across great finds by simply shopping around. Sometimes, if you shop around enough you'll find something that's already sporterized for cheap that'll make a great hunting rifle and is ready to go right then. Whichever road you choose, whether you buy something from a dealer/catalog or over-the-counter, you're going to have to look real hard and be patient to find a Mauser who's barrel isn't worn out.

 

The point I really want to stress here is you're going to want to take the least amount of risk by buying the best condition available. Though you're most likely going to pay more up front for the action, you're more than likely going to come out ahead in the long run. Therefore, avoid the Good-Very Good specials unless you can physically look down the bore to check for that rare diamond in the rough. Another tip I'll add is to get your hands on a GO and No-Go gauge for an 8x57JS. They're pretty inexpensive and it'll allow you to check the headspace on the rifle you're looking at before you purchase it. Also, take your common sense and eye for detail along and don't compromise. You want something that will headspace properly and has a bright shiny bore with lots of good rifling. Nothing less.

 

I'm sure the more experienced members with add some additional comments, but I just wanted to share some of my experience and hopefully try and keep you from re-inventing the wheel (3x) like I did. Good luck with your search and congrats on choosing a very practical and worthwhile cartridge as a basis for a sporter. And as always, feel free to ask lots of questions!

 

Jason

[bilurey]

FC, I'll try again.  I asked two questions on my last post but was mainly concerned with the question of a base action to build from.

 

I'm considering a sporter in 8x57.  The actions that seem to be available for a good price are Czech 98/22's, Turkish '38's and Yugo '48's.

 

From the experience of this forum is one of these a better choice to base such a rifle on?

Does one have inherent advantages? or dis-advantages? over the others?

 

I'd like to use the original barrelled action to keep costs down.  I'm thinking full length Mannlicher Style with open sights.

 

What do the masses say?

Steve

5310[/snapback]

 

[bilurey]

Over the past 50 years I've owned several hundred M98s, my experience is:

 

MANUFACTURERS: Best tooling, fitting, and finishing is by DWM followed by FN, BRNO, Steyr, then Oberndorf. Best production is prior to WWII. These companys produced rifles for over two dozen other countries and their contract rifles for these countries are included in the above rating by manufacturer. Spain, Turkey (KirKali), Yugo are cheap and acceptable but not worth spending a lot of money on. Chinese, home brewed S. American and Mexicans are not worth dealing with.

 

Calibers: 6.5X55 is popular, but was dropped by all countries who adopted it as a military cartridge as being of insufficient power. 7X57 remains popular for all game, expect thick skinned dangerours game, since 1892. 7.65X54 Belgian is a better cartridge than the .308 and sadly overlooked. The 8X57JS is virtually identical to the 30-06. Why rebarrel, just make sure you get a really nice barrel on the M98 you buy.

 

Improved sights and triggers are sometimes worthwhile, but, restocking requires great skill unless you can learn to glass bed properly. Scopes aren't always an improvment where snap shooting is necessary, or foggy/rainey conditions prevail. Some of the worlds greatest engineers, ballisticians, and craftsmen manufactured your Mauser, what are you going to do to top their work? Bill

[Horsefly]

LC,you might take a look at the Husky rifles Sarco has in 8MM.They have them built on small-ring and 98 actions,and from the picture of the one ZR1 bought,they are humdingers.They have fine line checkering,a pistol grip like the old Remington shotguns,and I think it has a sling swivel on the barrel like an Afrian express rifle.Z said his is a small-ring and he wished it was a 98,but I think they still have 98's in their ad.At 260.00,you'd be way better off than giving 200.00 for a barreled action that may or may not have a good bore,still have to buy a 75.00 stock,30.00 safety,cut and recrown the barrel,40.00 in sling and swivels,and probably 25.00 in sandpaper and stock finish.When you get ready to put a rifle together,look for a VZ 24 or 98/22 action,save your Coke money and get a barrel,well,what I'm getting at,is buy a piece at a time until all the parts are together,and build the gun you want.I think most of the folks here will agree on the German made actions first,then the BRNO's,'cause here is where I learned what little I know about piecing together a rifle.Look at Z's Husky in the Commercial section.Jerry

[MorgansBoss]

"...The actions that seem to be available for a good price are Czech 98/22's, Turkish '38's and Yugo '48's.

From the experience of this forum is one of these a better choice to base such a rifle on?

Does one have inherent advantages? or dis-advantages? over the others?"

 

Since you asked - I'd have to say you've already ranked them as I would.

98/22, Turk 38, Yugo 48.

 

The Czech rifles are good strong serviceable guns and all "normal" parts screw right on. The Turk is at least as good a choice as the Czech except for the small shank barrel, which can be a problem should you wish to change it out. The Yugo... well, nice rifle, but as the action is of the smaller size shopping for parts is a bit more difficult.

 

Now as for Bill's question... "Some of the worlds greatest engineers, ballisticians, and craftsmen manufactured your Mauser, what are you going to do to top their work?" I couldn't agree more with your analogy of design genius associated with Mausers. However there is room for improvement, personalization, and customization in any man-made product. I hated those hokey looking wheel covers on the 65 Mustangs, but a set of Creagers made the whole car look better!

[swamp_thing]

Littlecanoe, I have read your post and went back and read your original post on this subject. From what I gather you are somewhat partial to the idea of an m48 yugo. First let me say this, when they first were available from century in large quantities a few years ago I ordered several and learned the following. There were some listed as very good to excellent condition. As is often the case, the excellent condition guns were exactly that, great shiny new bores and shot very very well with Sellior and Belliot ammo. I am talking 1-2 inch grouping at 100 yards consistantly. I am sure there are still some of these around, and people like Allens or Empire would have some. Then there were the good to very good condition, which in my experience could be better discribed as sewerpipes. Don't be fooled by good to very good. It is definately a crap shoot. If you want an m48 and to stay with 8x57 just look for the excellent condition rifles and have at it. As for your question on the ammo being able to be loaded hotter than what is commercially available let me say this. The rifle was intended for a much hotter cartridge than what we will sell commercially made in the USA. The reason is that there are a few of the very old 8x57jr rifles with a .318 bore still around and with all the sue happy folks around, the american ammo manufacturers won't take a chance that someone will fire a hot load down a tight barrel.

8x57 loaded to it's true potential is a very good round indeed and I am sure others here will agree with this. The .323 bore 8mm rifles with the hotter loads such as S&B are fine rifles and would make a great sporter. Next in line for my money would be a 98/22 again looking for the excellent condition. The main concern obviously being bore condition. The turks would be last in line for my thoughts, as there is such a wide variaty of conditions and variations out there on them. Some are large ring with some of the receiver threads removed for the hand guard ring, some are large ring with small ring threads such as the kkales and some are very old 1893s I believe.

In my opinion I would search for and find that special m48 or 98/22 and from there build the rifle of your dreams. Just be willing to hold out and pay more for the good one to begin with and you will do very well indeed. Hope this helps. swamp thing

[Horsefly]

Littlecanoe,Cheaper-Than-Dirt had a few Yugo 48's a while back for 180.00 that were brand new old guns.Even the bluing was perfect.I figured they were prettied up battle guns until I pulled the bolt and looked down the barrel.They were brand new and the bolt was even a little tight.Maybe I can get by there and look to see if they have anymore.Jerry

[littlecanoe]

Thanks one and all for the words of wisdom shared here. I definitely don't want to re-create the wheel, as like most of you, I have limited time to devote to sporterizing.

I think that the big temptation is to go a bit crazy since the C & R license came in.

 

A few good points have been made that have caused me to think a bid on purpose and function. I appreciate the sewerpipe analogy as my first milsurp was a burned out Vz24 which has been transformed into a very nice little Sporter. It's original Mil barrel was aweful putting its shots all over the right side of a piece of notebook paper shooting off bags at 40 yds. Brutal! I would have needed the bayonet attached to hunt with that thing!

 

Something that I had not considered was the route that z1r just took. The price isn't bad for what you get. The question of Bore and Action are the only drawbacks but don't close the door here.

 

Looks like I have a few options to consider here. Maybe some slow selective reviewing of shows, shops and vendors as suggested. Then take a slow approach. A piece here, a part there..............I've seen some really nice work posted by the members here and would like to emulate some of that craftsmanship.

 

Steve

[Sailormilan2]

LittleCanoe, as you see each one of us has our likes and dislikes and opinions. So, I will throw my 2 cents worth in.

It appears that you want to keep cost down and try to stick with the original barrel. I probably don't have as much experience as the other guys, but in the past year or so I have sporterized about 10 Mauser of various types, and purchased another 10 or so for possible later work.

So, here are my impressions:

Czech/Brno 98/22. Good reputation, good workmanship. Long 29" barrel, which would probably have to be cut off for a decent hunting rifle. Bore would a crap shoot. The two I got were dark, and pitted, but shootable. All standard Mauser 98 parts and stocks would work. These are getting harder and harder to find.

VZ24. Pretty much the same as the 98/22. They come stock with a 23 1/2" to 24" barrel. I am considering trying to find one with the lion crest to sporterize.

All the other major manufactorers, FN, Steyr, etc, as long as they are the standard length 98, all commercial 98 parts and stocks should work. I wouldn't get one made during the war years, as there is very rough workmanship and machine marks. Especially the late war years.

I recently purchased a K98 through Century that had been scrubbed and cleaned up by Yugoslavia. Rifle in decent shape, bore good, a little dark, but shiney. But easily worth the $90 I paid for it.

The Yugos 24/47/48/48a.

Basically the same rifle. Except, the 24/47s have a straight bolt handle and are finished better. I actually managed to get one from SOG with matching numbers. Bore good, so its a keeper. The 48s and 48as are rougher built, though bluing will probably be good. Most of mine have bores that have been good. They have a bent bolt handle, and the 48as have stamped metal trigger guard. Lots of Yugos every where, cheap prices. They haven't been through a war, so haven't been beat up, or shot out, or rebuilt too much. That is the good thing.

The bad thing is that they haven't been through a war or shot much, since the action doesn't seem quite as smooth as my 98/22 and others.

These actions are slightly shorter, so some commercial parts will not work. Firing pin, bolt, and triggerguard. Unfortunately, nobody makes a nice hinged triggerguard for them yet.

Generally speaking, you can find a decent Yugo for around $100 if you have a C&R license. A little higher if you don't counting the dealer costs.

As for the pawnshop idea. It all depends on where you are. Here in California, the pawnshops are proud of their guns. I have only found one Mauser with a good price. It was a commercial one at $200.

But, if you decide to sporterize and do it your self, be vewwy, vewwy carefull. Mauser sporteritis is a very contagious desease. Hard to cure. One infected, it is a life long illness......................................some say madness.

[z1r]

Since you said an 8x57 sporter I'll assume you will be wanting to use the issue barrel. In that case, the main criteria should be barrel condition. When the yugos were being sold in near new condition they might get the nod simply because most barrels were as new. The actions were rough but shot good.

 

If I were building a sporter and wanted to keep the original barel I'd let barrel condition dictate my purchase

 

If I were shopping for an actions, I might have roughly the same list as Bilurey. Any of the German, Czech, Austrian, Beligian actions were good when made. The more important question is what kind of condition are they in presently? Many have been rewrked, some more than once. Judge each action by it's current condition.

[odies dad]

Lots of good opinions here.

My 2 cents; If you use a m48, you are going to have a little more trouble finding a stock to fit without extra work.

Another option is a Tweede. New 6.5x55 barrels are available rather cheap and these will screw into a K. Kale turk.

The 2 98-22's that I got for sporterizing were too nice and too good of shooters to tear apart, so I picked up a couple of really bad bored VZ24's when they were cheap.

[farktoof]

Sorry to butt in but whats the thoughts on a gew 98, DWM, 1916?

[z1r]

Sorry to butt in but whats the thoughts on a gew 98, DWM, 1916?

5418[/snapback]

 

 

Any of the German, Czech, Austrian, Beligian actions were good when made. The more important question is what kind of condition are they in presently? Many have been rewrked, some more than once. Judge each action by it's current condition.

 

MANUFACTURERS: Best tooling, fitting, and finishing is by DWM followed by FN, BRNO, Steyr, then Oberndorf. Best production is prior to WWII.

 

If it were me, I'd have the action recarburised. Actions that old tend to run soft. They were fine for the powders of the time but today's powders are a different story.

[Guest Guest_littlecanoe_*]

Well, I did it.

I called Sarco and spoke with TJ. Ordered a 8x57 on a 98 action. Supposed to be drilled on top for Weaver style bases. Should be in next week.

 

The story on these seems to be that the Swedish Gov bought them for defense since there was no standing army. Citizens used them and then they are turned in when people die etc.......

 

I'm a bit nervous. I'll give an update when it gets in. Should be here mid to late next wk.

 

Steve

[Doble Troble]

Boy, I'm looking forward to hearing about your Swede. Given the quality of the M96s I bet you'll have a winner.

[Sailormilan2]

I have been giving serious thought to ordering one of the Husqvarna rifles on a 98 action in 9.3x57mm from Sarco, so I would like to hear what yours is like.