TLynn Posted July 3, 2005 Report Share Posted July 3, 2005 OldgrandpainMI 1 Posts: 59 (6/1/05 5:36) Reply When does a C&R stop being a C&R? -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- **************REPOST************* Hey all, I have been looking for an answer to a question I've had long before I received my 03FFL last week, but yet to find an OFFICIAL answer. I was wondering if anyone knew "At what point does the sporterizing work on a C&R classified weapon make the weapon no longer classify as a C&R???" A phone call to the Detroit branch of the B.A.T.F.E. couldn't give me any OFFICIAL results, but the guy I talked to said: "If the weapon remains in your personal collection, there is NOTHING you can do as far as sporterizing, that will be of any consequence to your FFL. The problem lies when you sell it, now or in the future. A 03FFL holder that sells a modified 03FFL qualified weapon could be held libel for "Manufacturing a weapon without a license and some kind of Firearms tax. (which I didn't understand)." He also mentioned that: "If you improve the value in any way or sell it for a profit, you could be held liable for the same." But since he could not OFFICIALLY tell me when a C&R stops being a C&R due to sporterizing, he told me to write a letter to the B.A.T.F.E. in West Virginia. Can ANYONE tell me where I can find the "OFFICIAL" B.A.T.F.E. position as to what modifications have to be done to change the C&R status of a C&R weapon before the response arrives? I have written the letter to the B.A.T.F.E. in West Virginia (Firearms Technical Branch) as instructed to, but the letter just went into the mail today and it may be 6-8 weeks for a reply, if at all. I have read as much as I could stand, of all of the manuals that was sent in my 03FFL information package, but that is some very dry reading!!!!! Any help???? (If the origonal post of this question is recovered, please delete this. If you have left a reply under the origonal question, please reply here. The other post may be lost forever.) OGPIM Sporterized weapons are like children...... Half the fun in having them is making them!!! Edited by: OldgrandpainMI at: 6/1/05 5:55 ShooterTom1 1 Posts: 503 (6/1/05 6:55) Reply Re: When does a C&R stop being a C&R? -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I don't have the answer, But want to offer this. I don't think there will be an official answer. The BATFE much like the Calif DOJ, Never paint themselves into a corner with clear concise black and white regulations. That way they can make the regulation "mean" whatever they want, To suit there "needs" in any given situation. Its up to you to prove them wrong in court Just my thoughts. Tom Edited by: ShooterTom1 at: 6/1/05 8:14 OldgrandpainMI 1 Posts: 61 (6/4/05 6:56) Reply Re: When does a C&R stop being a C&R? -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I am glad to see that this post is back up and running. Maybe everything is on the mend. I agree that there is no guarantee of getting a non-ambiguous answer from a government agency, but it is worth a shot. Getting it in writing, regardless, is a hard learned lesson, and this is MY attempt. Posting here was just a short cut, I hoped, to find the answer before my reply came in the mail. Thanks, OGPIM Sporterized weapons are like children...... Half the fun in having them is making them!!! donmarkey 1 Posts: 24 (6/4/05 7:42) Reply When does a C&R stop being a C&R? -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I haven't received mine yet. They did cash my check though (good sign I hope) I'd think as long as it's a private sale, you'd just log it out as if you sold it unmodifed. Have you tried posting it on the c+r board? Don OldgrandpainMI 1 Posts: 64 (6/4/05 8:07) Reply Re: When does a C&R stop being a C&R? -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Don, Not yet. I was just there to see what was going on and eather my ISP is slow or the site is. Its taking forever to jump between subjects, so I just came back here. I'll go back later and see whats up. OGPIM Sporterized weapons are like children...... Half the fun in having them is making them!!! sonic1 1 Posts: 153 (6/4/05 9:40) Reply Re: When does a C&R stop being a C&R? -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- when you got your c& r you got a large book with all of the regs. in it ..you will find it a hard read.. every rule will have a can,if.and always.. in it..you will not get a hard and fast rule on your question..even on the c and r board no 2 posters will agree..most will say anything other than original configuration.is not a c and r ..but centerfire sells barreled actions as c and r..and now sells barreled actions in synthetic stocks..so i have no answer to your question z1r 1 Posts: 2793 (6/4/05 10:02) Reply Re: When does a C&R stop being a C&R? -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- He also mentioned that: "If you improve the value in any way or sell it for a profit, you could be held liable for the same." But since he could not OFFICIALLY tell me when a C&R stops being a C&R due to sporterizing, he told me to write a letter to the B.A.T.F.E. in West Virginia. This is true, a smith that provides an action for a project is subject to a tax. Not so if the client provides the action. This is just a continuation of those rules and makes sense in that the ATFE doesn't want C&R holders buying up ceap actions, fixing them up, and seeling them for profit. It is both a way to circumvent the class 01 licensing regs and not consistent with the notion of a collector. You can sell a C&R at a profit but altering it & selling is different. fritz501 The Gentleman Farmer & Piglet Exterminator Posts: 2352 (6/4/05 11:49) Reply Re: When does a C&R stop being a C&R? -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I may be wrong, but if you sell the gun (in it's original configuration) to a fellow as C&R, which it is, you log it out of your book to him. And then he can do with it what he wants. If he doesn't have a license, that is. What would be wrong with such a fellow having you then sporterize it for him? It's his gun, logged out of your book to him, so you have done all the paperwork required of a C&R collector. fritz I've learned....That everyone wants to live on top of the mountain, but all the happiness, and growth occurs while you're climbing it. z1r 1 Posts: 2791 (6/4/05 12:31) Reply Re: When does a C&R stop being a C&R? -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- "What would be wrong with such a fellow having you then sporterize it for him?:" You need an 01 ffl to do work on other people's guns! AzRednek 1 Posts: 357 (6/4/05 13:21) Reply Re: When does a C&R stop being a C&R? -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I’m not an expert here, I was a federal employee for some years and did work on a few occasions with ATF. I was also in the uniform business for a few years, sold guns trying for police uniform business and had a dealer’s license. First I know they will respond to your letter, maybe with allot of ambiguous BS but they will respond. Their biggest fear is you will send a copy to a congressman if they don’t. They will also keep your letter on file, violate what ever rule, law or fail to pay a tax in question you can’t play ignorant. ATF is also a bureaucracy with the power to enact law by bureaucratic decree, what is ok today could be a violation tomorrow. I’m certain some of you remember during the Carter administration there were several attempts to enact gun control via the bureaucracy. Save their written response. There are two types in ATF, the bean counters and the enforcement. It is the bean counters job to collect every penny in taxes they can find and earn their brownie points doing so. If there is any way of collecting a tax, they want it. The enforcement people have bigger fish to fry than nailing somebody over a sportorized action. If the action does wind up in a criminal’s hands or used in a crime, ATF could do some major damage to you. It is not wise to circumvent any rules, if in doubt, don’t do it, keep it in your vault. Even if the gun is stolen, traced back to you and you violated anything along the road transferring it, it could result in more than just loss of you license. A possible worse case scenario, a civil suit from the victim or victim’s family. If an ATF agent audits you, finds violations, he/she appears to be doing his job. When the ATF employee is up for review he/she looks good on paper if they find a lot of so-called wrong-doing. If the agent doesn’t find a lot of mistakes he/she might be considered a slacker (the same as a cop not writing speeding tickets) by their supervisor and passed over for promotion. Federal supervisors keep careful meticulous records of all their employees, they have to. The possibility of being drug into court promoting somebody over one of the privileged minorities is great and they better have all their ducks in order. Very simply, they will work diligently trying to find errors to show they are doing their job. If a simple error results in a conviction they will really shine in with the attaboys. The various federal district managers are in a competition to out-do each other. They want to look good on paper in case they come up for promotion or are applying for a higher level position within their agency or anywhere in the US Government. There is a strong likely hood of pressure being applied to subordinates to find violations. An imaginary case in point, district one finds a 5% error rate and district two finds a 25% rate. District two gets the attention, funds, employees, equipment and district one is forced to cut back. You can bet district one will go out of their way the following fiscal year to improve their numbers on the paper trail. Same scenario might apply to the amount of tax one district or agent collects. Some of you may recall the incident in all the gun rags in the late 70's when adjacent ATF districts working the same gun show tried to arrest each other. One posing as an illegal buyer the other as an illegal seller. I strongly suspect, as previously mentioned, the agent you spoke with wasn’t concerned about one transfer, he was however concerned by giving his ok you might move a thousand of them. roscoedoh 1 Posts: 861 (6/4/05 18:06) Reply Re: When does a C&R stop being a C&R? -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- OGPIM, I'm not an expert so take my words with a grain of salt. But... I've studied difference between the 03 and 01 FFL's on the BATF website a little and without getting too technical, I draw the following conclusions: The 01 FFL is sold expressly for running a gun business of some kind - that gunsmithing or gun selling for a profit. License enables the licensee to purchase new and used firearms which he can in turn sell for a profit. You'd also need this license if I wanted you to work on my Mauser for me and I wanted to drop the rifle off at your shop and come back later. (Once I drop it off and you log it into the bound book, it essentially becomes yours to work on as needed. When I come to pick it up and you log it back out to me, I regain possession and ownership of the firearm.) It is illegal for an unlicensed to person to work on someone else's firearm without them present for duration of the job. In essence, FFL's come down to possession and ownership. The downside of the 01 FFL, other than they're expensive, is that you can't use this license to collect firearms - it is for a profitable business and the BATF frowns upon 01 licensees who amass large collections firearms with their business license. Now then, the 03 FFL is for collectors. This license will enable you to collect all the 03 eligable firearms you want without much hassle. With this license, the BATF doesn't want the license holder constantly purchasing firearms and disposing of them at a profit. Its ok to buy a 5 rifle special from Century Arms, pick the best of the 5 and sell the rest to recoupe your cost and grown your collection further as you're retaining a rifle for your collection and conducting the sale for collecting purposes; but you didn't buy all 5 with the intention of making money off all 5 either. The BATF does not want you to have a business or consistently turn a tiddy profit with your collector's license. If you hold an FFL to make money, you'd need an 01. Furthermore, whether you have an FFL or not, you *can* work on any of the firearms you own in any manner you wish provided you follow guidelines set down by the feds (e.g. no barrels shorter than xx", you can't turn a rifle into a handgun, you cannot build your own semi-auto or automatic firearms, etc). Federal law provides that you can work on your guns - just follow their rules. The key is, you own the firearms ergo you may build up, tear apart, shoot, or dispose of your property as you see fit. The only reason you'd want an 03 in this regard is to glean the savings on parts that are available and have the convience of having the rifles shipped to your front door. And as a further comment, I haven't found any regulations against buying Mausers and sporterizing them and then disposing them via sale. But, thereupon rests a thin line between the appearance of an active hobbiest and someone running a firearms business without a proper license. Be careful about calling your hobby a business - you wouldn't want the feds to get the wrong idea. After all, when dealing with the bureacratic process, a lot of times its the fundillo making the decisions who determines whether or not the full force and attention of the Federal Government shall be cast down upon you. Any appearance of inpropriety and the BATF agents get an attaboy for finding an error. OPGIM, you now know all that I understand about FFL's. So far, everyone I've talked to has kind of agree with me in my conclusions, but don't take my words as the gospel. Please keep us posted on what you find out with your research, I know I'm curious to hear what you find out. Thanks and take care, Jason Stephen F. Austin State University Class of 2005! Doble Troble 1 Posts: 470 (6/4/05 22:36) Reply Re: When does a C&R stop being a C&R? -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Thanks, Jason. Great informed opinion, and one that I agree with completely. I just wish it were easier to deal with these people who are supposedly there to serve us. Nothing interesting is ever easy to do, especially with governments and other naysaying killjoys around. But governments and killjoys can't stop the intrepid. Just do your very best to keep good records and follow the published rules, then do what makes sense. If you get into trouble you'll at least know that you're right and have a clear conscious, and will be probably be thinking clearly about why the second amendment is necessary. I am Bubba (but learning) OldgrandpainMI 1 Posts: 65 (6/5/05 8:02) Reply Re: When does a C&R stop being a C&R? -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I will let you know what the B.A.T.F.E. says in their reply when I receive it. I understood the differences of the 01 and 03 regs, generally, as I did the same as you with their site. It was the question(s) of the weapon(s) itself and the actually standing of the B.A.T.F.E.. I use this as another example of my curiosity: If I take an unaltered, unmodified, untouched, Turkish Mauser that has been logged into my BOUND BOOK and put a scope on it, does it remain a C&R? If I refinish the stock, would that drop it? Both of which, as I understand it, could be classified as "Improving the value or state of the weapon" which could change its classification. Now if I purchased the weapon as a C&R and logged it in as same in my BOUND BOOK, how could I possibly log out the weapon if the work I did now makes the classification something other that a C&R, considering that the BOUND BOOK and my 03FFL should reflect only C&R weapons and their transactions? How could I log IN a C&R qualified weapon and log OUT a non-C&R qualified weapon without problems with the B.A.T.F.E.??? And then, if in the future I decide to sell it, and if I do SOMETHING to change the classification of the weapon, whats to tell me when am I unable to use my 03FFL and depend on a 01FFL for that transaction? This is the basis of my question(s) and curiosity and what I am trying to find in writing from the B.A.T.F.E.. I really do find all of the posts informative and hope I hear more form you all before the B.A.T.F.E. sends me their reply. Thanks, OGPIM Sporterized weapons are like children...... Half the fun in having them is making them!!! sonic1 1 Posts: 155 (6/5/05 9:17) Reply Re: When does a C&R stop being a C&R? -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- you have very good questions that we all would like answers for. many say just log the gun out as sporterised but then if you sell it how can it be tracked..and the log book does not show the purchase price or the selling price who's to say you made a profit. i think the business part is what the atf is looking for and traceability of the guns.but this is all up to the agent that you deal with. hope i never get audited . mod70 1 Posts: 165 (6/5/05 11:33) Reply ezSupporter Modifications -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Grandpa Just holding a C&R in your collection can lead to an increase in value if that particular gun becomes more desirable to collectors over time or you happen upon a rare variation. Furthermore, an act such as scope installation or stock repairs/refinishing can decrease the value of the gun in some circles. There is much subjectivity in many regulations and it frequently comes down to individual interpretation as to how they are applied. This is one of the things that propagates the legal profession and makes honest folks like us somewhat leery of dealing with the government. Seems all the rules and regs are so much drivel to the bad guys and they don't give a flip about any of them, and, unfortunately, they frequently don't seem to be held to their standards. I too await your answer from the ATF. fritz The Gentleman Farmer Posts: 541 (6/5/05 21:54) Reply Re: Modifications -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- If you sporterize it, you log it out as "no longer C&R, (sporterized)" Simple as that, unless someone wants to make it more complicated. fritz "Against the wind, we were running against the wind. We were young and strong and running against the wind." speared um 1 Posts: 89 (6/6/05 12:08) Reply Re: Modifications -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- AH, but can you legally sell the 'no longer C&R (sporiterized)' with your 03FFL,or do you need to use a 01FFL license? Thanx Dante' OldgrandpainMI 1 Posts: 70 (6/6/05 14:10) Reply Reply -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Speared um, Now you know the basis of my questions! The answer would be NO if the C&R is not a C&R any longer. A 01FFL MUST me used. But AT WHAT POINT DOES A C&R STOP BEING A C&R????? Still waiting for an answer from the B.A.T.F.E!!!! OGPIM sonic1 1 Posts: 156 (6/6/05 14:18) Reply Re: Modifications -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ok you log it out... 4years later you sell it .1 year later the atf shows up ..wants to to see it ..you can't just say its gone and i don't remember were it went..the feds like a nice clean paper trail on every thing, yes i know most people will remember where it was sold..but the whole ideal of the the A and D book is to show a chain of ownership when the feds go to looking for a gun. this of course is just my 2 cents on the subject and by no means have i ever been told that i know what i'm taking about..over at the C and R forum these same arguments go on OldgrandpainMI 1 Posts: 72 (6/6/05 18:03) Reply I may have found what I was looking for!!! -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- This may be the answer to give before the B.A.T.F.E. sends me THEIR answer, and it is what I thought and hoped it would be!!! A C&R "STAYS" a C&R even if everything is changed EXCEPT the receiver!! As stated in the import restrictions: I Quote: "A surplus military firearm is defined as one that belonged to a regular or irregular military force at any time. Alteration of the firearm does not change its status. Therefore, a sporting firearm with a surplus military frame or receiver is a surplus military firearm, because a frame or receiver is classified as a firearm as described in 18 U.S.C. S 921(a)(3)]" I have typed it word for word and highlighted the significant line. If the import regulations state this, then the actual definition above should apply to the A & D under the 03FFL! I'll keep you posted as the the B.A.T.F.E. reply! OGPIM Edited by: OldgrandpainMI at: 6/6/05 18:05 Doble Troble 1 Posts: 472 (6/6/05 19:44) Reply Re: I may have found what I was looking for!!! -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Not all C&Rs are surplus military. I hate trying to think like a friggin' lawyer. But I think your interpretation is right on. Good luck getting a clear answer from a beaurocrat. I am Bubba (but learning) Edited by: Doble Troble at: 6/6/05 19:48 Rhys898 1 Posts: 147 (6/6/05 20:04) Reply Re: I may have found what I was looking for!!! -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- My understanding is similar to roscoe's. I have been sporterizing guns and logging them out, but, I wouldn't try to sell one without going through an 01 if I had sporterized it. So for example. I just bought a Arisaka. If I leave it in original condition I can sell it later to an individual and log it out of my bound book. But, with the vz24 that I bought and logged in then logged out as sporterized I would need to sell it through an 01 and keep documentation of that transfer to show the ATF if necessary. Thats my take, as usual, I'm not a lawyer so don't hold me responsible, but, I did stay in a holiday inn express last night roscoedoh 1 Posts: 863 (6/6/05 20:08) Reply Interesting Discussion Along Similar Lines -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- NEWS FLASH BATF RULE CHANGE! This is sort of germain to this topic. The above contains some good stuff in it... And Doble Troble, I know you have warm, fuzzy place in your heart for lawyers. You shouldn't be so hard them - not all of them are bad; its just that other 99% of lawyers that give all the good ones a bad name! Jason Edited by: roscoedoh at: 6/6/05 20:23 fritz The Gentleman Farmer Posts: 547 (6/6/05 20:08) Reply Re: I may have found what I was looking for!!! -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I'm still in the dark (or grey as BATFE would like) as to how the first shipments of cutdown M48 Yugos were sold as C&R, but later they stopped this. Makes about as much sense as any other government regulation, believe me I have been part of the USDA years ago, and I never did understand their stupid rules. That's the guvment, and it will always be. If anyone here can explain it any better than the previous poster about the receiver or frame being the firearm, please let us know how it could be different. And why would a C&R licensee have to document anything on a non-C&R firearm? The log book is only for C&R firearms. If a 03 licensee buys a non-C&R firearm, it does not go in his book. I talked this over with an agent of that branch of our guvment, and she was pretty specific about no firearm being entered into a C&R book unless it was C&R. Your other firearms have no place in that book. And that book, to the best of my knowledge, is the only book you need to keep. fritz "Against the wind, we were running against the wind. We were young and strong and running against the wind." Edited by: fritz at: 6/6/05 21:13 OldgrandpainMI 1 Posts: 78 (6/7/05 6:08) Reply reply -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Excerpt from a guy named RICK, the post Rhys898 left: "I have, in my hot little hands, a pamphlet from the BATF office in Cincinnati entitled: “Gunsmith Information“ concerning your liability for Federal Firearms and Ammunition Excise Tax. This pamphlet lists some of the procedures that can make you a “manufacturer” and liable for Federal Excise Tax record keeping and payment. Three of my favorites: 1. Cutting off part of the barrel of a firearm, is, of itself, an act of manufature. 2. Engraving that “substantially” increases the value of the firearm is an act of manufacture. 3. Sporterizing a military rifle is considered to be manufacturing. They also state that checkering and refinishing do not “generally” constitute manufacturing...whatever “generally” means?" Things are getting interesting!!! OGPIM Edited by: OldgrandpainMI at: 6/7/05 6:10 Rhys898 1 Posts: 148 (6/7/05 11:21) Reply Re: reply -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- screw it, I don't really intend to sell any of my toys anyway But if I did I would be smart enough to wait a couple years after my C&R expired. Doble Troble 1 Posts: 475 (6/7/05 12:38) Reply Re: reply -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The thought of my C&R expiring makes my palms sweat. I am Bubba (but learning) fritz The Gentleman Farmer Posts: 553 (6/7/05 18:48) Reply Re: reply -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I think some of you are jumping to a conclusion as to being a "manufacturer". The term "engaged in the business" comes into play here. Since there have been some quotes from Federal bulletins posted here, let me quote you one: In the definitions section of the Federal Firearms Regulations Reference Guide, Chapter 44 Firearms, Section 921, paragraph 21---The term "engaged in the business" means: (A) as applied to a manufacturer of firearms, a person who devotes time, attention, and labor to manufacturing firearms as a regular course of trade or business with the principal objective of livelihood and profit through the sale or distribution of the firearms manufactured. So you see, for every Federal quote you can come up with, there is another one out there in official Federal books also! See why they like to keep it a grey area? But as to the frame or receiver being the firearm, this does not apply to C&R guns. They have to be in original configuration to be classified C&R. fritz "Against the wind, we were running against the wind. We were young and strong and running against the wind." Edited by: fritz at: 6/7/05 18:54 roscoedoh 1 Posts: 868 (6/7/05 18:54) Reply Re: reply -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ahhhh....administrative law... Stephen F. Austin State University Class of 2005! z1r 1 Posts: 2800 (6/7/05 19:21) Reply Interpretation -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Better to err on the side of caution. My father in law used to love to fight with the powers to be and took great delight in going to court over issues like this. But then, he had both lots of time & money. He usually won You have to ask yourself, how much of both are you willing to expend in trying to prove your point. Before you go go getting tied up in the definition of engaged in as a business think about this. fritz The Gentleman Farmer Posts: 557 (6/7/05 19:45) Reply Re: Interpretation -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- You are right, you may have to prove your point someday. But if it's in official government print, why back down? I have no criminal intent in mind, and I don't want anybody else calling me a criminal when I am not. fritz "Against the wind, we were running against the wind. We were young and strong and running against the wind." 724wd 1 Posts: 104 (6/15/05 22:19) Reply this is interesting -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- hey guys, i ran into this tonite. thought it was interesting and worth a look www.rawles.to/Pre-1899_FAQ.html fritz501 The Gentleman Farmer & Piglet Exterminator Posts: 2356 (6/16/05 21:30) Reply Re: this is interesting -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Several States (including Texas and Florida) use the Federal definition -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Interesting to see if a cop in either of those states knows about that law! Texas, in particular, is more interested in collecting the CCW fee, and most of the residents have caved in to it. Nobody wants to bring out the old law (still on the books) about being a "traveler". fritz I've learned....That everyone wants to live on top of the mountain, but all the happiness, and growth occurs while you're climbing it. Edited by: fritz501 at: 6/16/05 21:33 Doble Troble 1 Posts: 516 (6/16/05 22:16) Reply Re: this is interesting -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Hey, fritz. Can you expound a bit on the Texas traveller law? I may be rolling through there next week. I am Bubba (but learning) roscoedoh 1 Posts: 893 (6/17/05 0:40) Reply Re: this is interesting -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I *believe* that if you are traveling through more than three counties that's considered "traveling" (or travelin' if yer a Texan). I personally have never tried it. And with our new CHL laws, I don't know if I could use that excuse anymore. Personally, if I have the Model 19 with me, its usually riding around in my toolbox on the driver side. I have yet encountered a need for the revolver while driving as I'm not in too many rolling gun battles. ...And as I understand it, it is perfectly legal to carry the gun around in the toolbox - you can't easily get to in from the cab. fritz501 The Gentleman Farmer & Piglet Exterminator Posts: 2363 (6/17/05 21:30) Reply Re: this is interesting -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Unless the state legislature has changed the state law, the "traveler" definition is not stated as to how many counties you have to be crossing. It merely says that you must be a valid traveler. If traveling through 2 (or 3) counties is your usual route to your daily employment--you are not defined as a traveler. You are merely commuting. Traveler is different (don't ask me how, but it's the truth!) Many people are mistaken on the definition, just as the definition they may be given by a local DA. The one that always makes me laugh is the one where a fellow says that the DA told him he could pack heat while he was enroute to the bank with his payroll. Nothing is in the state law about that, and it is just a local DA's definition. But since he is the fellow who will be in charge of prosecuting you in the event some uninformed cop arrests you, you will have to go to court and prove that the DA told you that. It ain't law. The old law goes back to the days of horseback travelers, and they could legally carry a pistol in their saddlebags. As I have read the law in the Texas section of the ATF guidebook on state regulations, the pistol can be on the seat beside you, fully loaded. As long as you are "traveling". Upon stopping for the night, that pistol must remain in your vehicle, or you must have a CCW permit. But try to explain that one to the cop on the beat! I can't find my copy of the "State regulations" as issued by the ATF, but it was in there at one time. Maybe when Texas got greedy and passed the CHL fee, they may have skewed the older law. If so, it merely made things simpler for the local cops when they find a pistol in your vehicle. fritz "It seemed like yesterday, but it was long ago---we were young and strong and running against the wind" Edited by: fritz501 at: 6/17/05 21:38 horsefly 1 Posts: 1147 (6/18/05 6:42) Reply Re:this is interesting -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I read where it was legal(in Tex.)to have a handgun in a vehicle if you are coming or going to a target range,hunting,to a gunsmith for repairs,or leaving place of purchase.I still have the regulations somewhere in all my gun junk and will see if I can dig them up.Jerry OldgrandpainMI 1 Posts: 110 (6/18/05 7:16) Reply Re: Re:this is interesting -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I don't own a pistol or a CCW, but I have a close friend who does! He has been pulled over 3 times in one year. (Not a good driver at all). He always packs his weapon. Well, because of the way the police work around here, the "Don't ask, don't tell" policy on handguns and CCW just doesn't work. The first thing the cops ask isn't: License, regestration, and proof of insurance", it is " Mr. (insert name here), do you have your weapon with you?" If you answer yes, then they secure the weapon until the stop is finished and return it to you. If you answer no, and they find it, then it is BYE-BYE for two years and the loss of your CCW and weapon! When they run your plate, they run your background, and if it shows you have a CCW, they avoid the "Don't ask, Don't tell" policy by asking. Transporting weapons (especially long guns) around here is a tricky business!!! It is safe to say that if you cannot PROVE you are going to a range, smith's shop, home, trade show, or hunting (when in season), you'd better keep your weapon at home! (unless it falls under the CCW rules and qualifications) I have heard that it is legal to carry weapons in the back windows of pickup's in other states, but do it here, cased or uncased- loaded or unloaded, you will be spending a mandatory 2 years in prison for a firearms violation. If you have a trunk in your vehical, and the weapon isn't in it, the same thing!!! If it is in you trunk and loaded, BYE-BYE!!! As stated to me, "the only varience to this is to pickup owners, but it must be behind the seat, unloaded, and trigger locked! All ammo must be located in the glove box, and not stored in or near the weapon! If you have a cap, camper, or cover on the back of your truck, then this rule does not apply! It must be stored in the back end." The only positive change in the Firearms Rules that I've reciently noticed is that that have reduced the caliber of weapon that can be used for deer hunting!!! You can use ANY caliber to hunt, with the exception of .22 rimfire. (it used to be .30 cal or greater) I just might make that .223 I've always wanted!!! Forget the .458 Win Mag. OGPIM Sporterized weapons are like children...... Half the fun in having them is making them!!! Edited by: OldgrandpainMI at: 6/18/05 7:21 manureman 1 Posts: 401 (6/18/05 8:24) Reply Re: Re:this is interesting -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Wow thats rough,here in Mo. we've always been able to carry a long gun any way we pleased,loaded unloaded anytime and about any place now handguns that was different until we recently got the CCL ,now if your 21 and the handgun is registered in your name you can have it loaded and any where in your rig you want,but to actually carry it on your person you have to take the class and get your permit etc...Jim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts