Big disappointment with S&W autos

[AzRednek]

Doing a bit of house cleaning I came across three, one hundred round boxes of 9MM reloads I put together and forgot about. I loaded these during the time I was recovering from Chemo. Fortunately I tagged the boxes with date and data. Both the Lugar and Makarov handloads were all loaded with home cast lead. I dug deep into my vault and headed to the range with eight handguns. I even drug along my old Ruger Blackhawk with the 9MM cylinder just in case the handloads were bad. Surprisingly the handloads functioned, shot just fine and were accurate until I got to my two Smith and Wessons, models 915 and a 6906. After a mag in each the shot to shot accuracy took a real nose dive. I assumed the drop off in accuracy was due to fatigue. The surprise was after I began cleaning. 

The S&W pistol's bores were leaded bad and I do mean bad probably the worse I've ever seen. All the other pistol bores cleaned up just fine with a simple brushing of Hoppees #9. Didn't find any leading in them after pushing through dry patches. I put the S&W's aside, later searching through my junk unsuccessfully for Lead Away patches. I did find an old bottle of Sweets 762 I used years ago to remove copper fouling. The Sweets didn't do jack. I dug deep into the cabinet under the kitchen sink and found some copper steel wool. A quick check with a refrigerator magnet showed me one pad was real copper, not the copper colored steel be passed off today as copper wool. 

Took some real work but I finally managed to get the lead out. Using a magnifying glass and light to get a good look into the bores. I was really disappointed in the quality of the bores. I could see tool marks and one bore appeared to have some chatter marks. The bores just didn't have the smooth and shiny look all my other 9's did. Being fond of older S&W revolvers especially for their quality. Guess I just had higher expectations for their autos. None of my other 9's could be considered high end and even my cheapie 80's Norinco Tokarov had a smooth shiny bore after shooting lead. I can only speculate the S&W's were manufactured during the era they were controlled by a Jap corporate entity and their quality nose dived from manufacturing short cuts to save bucks. I got both S&W pistols from Backpage trades and don't know their history. The model 915 is a shooter despite the rough bore with factory jacketed ammo but I'll never shoot lead in it again. 

[Sailormilan2]

Try lapping the bores with some JB Bore Paste.  That might help.  That also helps removing some of the lead deposits. I've had luck, when trying to remove lead from a barrel, in driving an unsized cast bullet through the booze.  Acts like a scraper and cleans a lot of the lead out.

Out of curiosity, what size bullets are you using?  For years I sized at .356 for 9mm.   But after reading that it's better to go up a bit, I've started sizing mine at .357.  My High Power takes a .358 bullet.  

[AzRednek]

I loaded the 9's a few years ago and can't say for sure but never sized less than .357 and some were .358. I use a RCBS gas checked 9MM round nose mold also in my Rossi 357/38 lever action. I recall for certain those slugs were sized .358. There was also a batch of 9's from a Lee mold that were tumble lubed with no sizing. My hand loaded 9's were pretty much a hodge-pudge of various home cast I consolidated into two 100 rd ammo boxes over the years. Some may have been loaded 10 or more years old. 

I suspect the S&W 9's I got in two separate Backpage trades may have had copper fouled bores. From what I've read on the net, lead through a copper fouled bore will lead to leading the bore. I don't have any JB bore paste but did use another brand of mildly abrasive bore paste after using the copper wool. It shined the bores up but revealed the rough spots. 

[Dr.Hess]

Try some Butch's Bore Shine.  I bought a Lilja barrel for an AR build and that's what Lilja recommends for removing copper deposits.  They should know their stuff.

[AzRednek]

Don't know the brand but the bore paste I have came with a Shaw barrel kit I bought about 15 years ago. I used it previously a few years ago on a plastic wad fouled shotgun bore. Bore brush seemed to just iron and flatten it out. Bore shined like brand new after using the paste with a 12ga cotton mop. 

EDIT: Just went and looked, it's Uncle Ed's bore paste. Best I recall the barrel kits also came with a sample of Ed's Red oil. 

[rebel49]

Years ago I had a .22 rifle that was really leaded. Tried everything you guys mentioned, no dice. So someone had told me to try Kroil, I plugged the breech and filled the barrel and let it sit for 3-4 days. Dumped the barrel and swabbed and out came strips of lead. Did the same thing several times, followed by brushing and more patches and finally got down to barrel metal.

The bore showed nice and shiny and you could still see machining marks with the borescope.

[Dr.Hess]

That's interesting on the Kroil.  People swear by that stuff as a penetrating oil  in automotive world.

[AzRednek]

14 hours ago, Dr.Hess said:

That's interesting on the Kroil.  People swear by that stuff as a penetrating oil  in automotive world.

I've seen a lot of praise on the net about Kroil but for a penetrating oil I swear by PB Blaster. 

[flyer338]

I have had good luck using jacketed ammo to remove lead. My theory is that being loaded to higher pressures and temperatures the copper jacked pushes the lead out and the hot gasses do the rest.

I am not sure I am right about why, but it works.

[AzRednek]

On 8/31/2021 at 11:33 AM, flyer338 said:

I have had good luck using jacketed ammo to remove lead. My theory is that being loaded to higher pressures and temperatures the copper jacked pushes the lead out and the hot gasses do the rest.

I am not sure I am right about why, but it works.

Flyer, first of all WELCOME!!
 

I’ve had similar results using jacketed bullets to clear the leading. With my Rossi 38/357 lever action rifle. Years ago leading the bore considerably with home cast 38’s. I shot 4 or so rounds of hot charged, gas checked, hard cast 357’s to clean out the leading. The bullet lube I used on the hot 357’s required the use of a heater. I think it was the wax in the lube as it left the bore bright and very shiny. Lost the shine though with a patch likely soaked in #9 but the bore was spotless. Unfortunately I’ve had numerous incidents of jacketed bullets just iron out the barrel leading especially in the area near a revolver’s forcing cone. Since discovering the use of real copper, copper wool and bore paste. Leaded barrels are no longer the former king sized pain in the donkey. 
 

In the early 70’s, I was new to shooting and a real rookie to hand loading. Not knowing better I loaded store-bought cast lead to max or near max 357 velocities. The bore was a mess and I struggled spending a lot of time trying to clean it out of a 1970’s S&W Model 19. Asking for advice on the CB radio. An old man whose handle was Weak Eyes chimed in. “Grandpa used to cork up the bore after adding vinegar and let it sit overnight”. Desperate I tried it and by morning the first patch cleared it all out. It worked but probably not a good idea as the vinegar is acidic. I lost that pristine Model 19 to a thief in 1989. 

[Dr.Hess]

The vinegar is said to be hell on bluing.

I load up my cast 55gr 224 bullets, no gas check, powder coated by my "shake and bake method" in a thread here on the site, 

over enough unique to push it to 2000 FPS, as measured on my chrono, fired through my Howa 1500 Mini and I get ZERO leading.  Looks like I've been firing FMJ's.

[AzRednek]

Doc, I never got into powder coating but if I ever get back into casting and hand loading. I’d definitely start powder coating rather than the very time consuming lubing/sizing process. My only personal experience with powder coated bullets was with some loose gun show find 45’s suitable for 45 Colt. There were also about a dozen coated with Latex paint. I shot them up in a Rossi lever action and Ruger Blackhawk. Best I recall they were loaded on the mild side and left clean bores. I was especially surprised by the Latex coated bullets. I expected the bore to be painted white. Other than some loose tiny white particles the bore was clean. 

[Dr.Hess]

I dunno about painting them with Latex paint.  Hey, if it works...  Powder coating the cast bullets I'll have to admit is more time consuming than just running them through the sizer-luber.  But it is well worth the effort. I've shot a lot of cast, lubed bullets and always had to deal with leading.  Not anymore.  44MAG loaded as hot as the manuals say you can go with a jacketed bullet, 429 Desert Eagle, which is sort of 44 Magnum Magnum, all with cast, powder coated bullets.

[AzRednek]

 

8 hours ago, Dr.Hess said:

I dunno about painting them with Latex paint.  Hey, if it works...  Powder coating the cast bullets I'll have to admit is more time consuming than just running them through the sizer-luber.  But it is well worth the effort. I've shot a lot of cast, lubed bullets and always had to deal with leading.  Not anymore.  44MAG loaded as hot as the manuals say you can go with a jacketed bullet, 429 Desert Eagle, which is sort of 44 Magnum Magnum, all with cast, powder coated bullets.

From some of the chatter on the Cast Boolit board. Many of the longtime hardcore casters have eliminated the conventional lubing process and gas checks as well. Now favoring powder coating. I didn’t drive the Latex painted bullets very hard. No telling how they might stand up to Mag velocities. Seems to me though coating bullets with Latex paint as a real pain and I’m unsure of the method. I do know or probably better said what I was told working about eight weeks in a paint store. Latex is a form of water soluble artificial rubber. Might have just been hype from the manufacturer reps. I do recall the rubbery characteristics of the paint removed from Teflon coated cookie sheets. 
 

Looking back on this thread. That’s a smoking deal on the AR upper with a bolt carrier. One might expect to pay 2-3 times that today possibly more with the sometimes crazy pricing on bolt carriers and miracle barrels. A few years ago a stranger showed up at my gun club claiming his AR kits minus the lower receiver could be fired without any lubricant or routine cleaning. I don’t recall the dollar figure but do remember it was high enough myself and others quickly lost interest.