FN commercial action

[montea6b]

The heart and soul of project #2 will be a commercial FN receiver. I picked it up sans bolt, but with the triggerguard and a funky two part trigger assembly. Two questions:

 

1. The left front receiver ring, (where the serial number normally resides... it's on the bottom flat) has some strange heiroglyphics that if read vertically (muzzle end up) from top to bottom consist of a star, a small letter H, a kokopele (or dancing lion), larger letters "PV", and a down pointing arrow.

 

Aside from their whimsical appearance do they serve any useful purpose? Perhaps they tell a story about that action, and if so are an additional clue to its pedigree. If so, would it be wise to keep them?

 

2. Wassup with that trigger? Is it any good? I tried sliding an assembled bolt into place to check for function and it wouldn't engage at all. It seemed that the cocking piece didn't even contact the sear. Should I just plan on replacing it?

 

In case anyone's interested it will be an elk rifle, possibly for moose or bison should I ever pursue that. I've pretty much decided on the 35 Whelen, and am wondering if the AI version is worth venturing into. I have a beautiful piece of classic shaped, semi-inlet claro from Dakotacliff, and that's about it for now. I'm thinking about having a Benchmark barrel installed, (they're driving distance from me, and I dropped by and spoke with Ron for a while two weeks ago. Good people, great barrels.) I'd like a three position Winchester style safety, checkered bolt handle, ebony or burl forend tip, banded front sight, and express rear, or possibly a quarter rib. I'm after a classic safari type look, although I think I may skip the banded front sling swivel. Kind of what a Dakota rifle looks like.

 

By the way, project #1 is finally range ready. The Mrs has her monthly day with mom and sister or I would have shot it today. Stand by for a range report and additional photos...

 

It's still less than 100% - the checkering needs some final work pointing things up, finishing work in the corners, and cleaning up the borders. I was trying to get it in shape for hunting this year and brushed in a light coat of tung oil just so I could take it afield. Alas, I didn't get it chambered and feeding in time to make it, although there may still be a late season I can make...

 

I'll also probably bed the action yet, and may eventually break it back down for a proper rust blue job. It has been Oxpho-blued and looks OK, but not as good as I'd like. Plenty of other glitches though, so not willing to spent too much more time trying to polish a turd. Still, I'm happy with it for a first go around.

 

 

[Vladymere]

The "hieroglyphics" are standard FN/Belguim proof marks. You will se these same proof marks on FN produced military Mauser rifles.

 

The small letter h should pinpoint a particular inspector. Knowing the inspector woul allow you to approximate the date as the time frame the inspector worked would also be known.

 

I do not know a source for IDing the inspectors though.

 

Vlad

 

 

[BradD]

I consider myself fortunate to have found a few FN commercials over the years, and while they aren't perfect, they are my favorites.

 

Often times, since these were made for export to US "gun builders" they have no serial number at all. Such was left to the "builder" to take care of here, but many never got numbered or just sold as actions only without numbers applied. Look carefully at the numbers underneath on the flat. Some of them are four number dates, ie: "1952" or "1062" (Oct 1962) or some such. Some times there is a year only, I have one on my desk getting ready to go that is marked "52". It's a full "C" ring with low rear bridge. I have mistakenly had my barrel guy stamp what I thought was the serial number on the ring above the stock line so it could be seen only to find out that it was either an assembly number or a date. Oh well, that's better than nothing.

 

As Vladymere said, the rest of the marks are either proof marks or assembly marks.

 

Some had serial numbers only on the bolt either stamped on the handle (not to be confused with Interarms dating system on their bolts, but similar looking) or engraved on the bottom of the bolt body. That won't help you, though.

 

Anything unnumbered will have been made between appx 1947 (post WWII) and 1968 (GCA 68).

 

For the most part, the triggers are good for throwing at gophers. The farther away the better!. They were attempts at salvaging the military style. Get an adjustable commercial. The goofy two part triggers were mostly on the Sears "J.C. Higgins" Model 50 in the late 1950's.

 

On the later models (mid -60's) you will often find a Sako "Made in Finland" adjustable trigger with side safety. They also used a sort of speedlock and the sear engagement was milled at a slant rather than 90 degrees engagement. Worked very well but needs the right cocking piece or make one to work.

 

I have built 5 AI versions of stuff now and am starting to think that, for the most part, they are just a troublesome pain in the butt. The gain is minimal. The dies are expensive. Sometimes there are feeding problems. Cases need annealing. And they are so hard to headspace and properly bullet-seat that getting accuracy becomes awfully discouraging. But, if you're like me, just looking for something different to do, they are intesting. If not stay with the 35W or jump to the .358 Norma (fantastic, user friendly cartridge).

 

Good luck,

Brad

[montea6b]

Thanks Brad! I'll have to check that number again to see if it looks like a date.

 

So, if it doesn't have a serial number, is a builder required to make one up? The FFL dealer I had it delivered to recorded the number on the flat as the serial number, should I restamp where it's visible above the woodline? I know it's illegal to obliterate them, but unsure if they're required otherwise... (Just in case an over zealous ATF agent stops me in the woods!)

 

On another note, I saw in Shotgun News where they are selling new FN commercial receivers without the ejector slot or hole, and un-heat treated for a very good price. Are these worth messing with?

 

BTW, mine supposedly came from a J. C. Higgins which explains the trigger.

[z1r]

The FFL dealer I had it delivered to recorded the number on the flat as the serial number, should I restamp where it's visible above the woodline?

 

7320[/snapback]

 

I hate when the ffls don't know the regs.

 

On another note, I saw in Shotgun News where they are selling new FN commercial receivers without the ejector slot or hole, and un-heat treated for a very good price.  Are these worth messing with?

 

7320[/snapback]

 

 

Given the amount of work, not much different than D&Ting, I'd be inclined to just use a good milsurp action. I suppose it depends on how good you are at metalwork and if you have the tools at your disposal? If you just want to say you did it, that could be cool too.

 

I'm getting my JC Higgins tonight. I wonder if it has an SN? If not, I bet it really screws with the dealer I'm going to.

[BradD]

If they don't have serial numbers, they don't have serial numbers. It's spooky, but they are legal, so long as they NEVER had numbers. If they had them but they've been removed it's time for the smelter.

 

On legal unnumbered guns I understand that you can contact BATFE and request that they issue you a serial number, which you can then have applied. I guess you get paperwork from them proving it's all legit. Sounds like a nightmare to me!

 

My guy says that if there is already a legal serial number on the gun and you just wish to restamp it to a more visible place there is no issue at all. I have had several which did have regular serial numbers on the bottom flat or under the stock line, along with proof and assembly marks. Being an old cop I wanted them out where they can be seen.

 

There just is no best answer on that point. As long as it is legally unnumbered it's pretty much a matter of what you're comfortable with.

 

Brad

[BradD]

PS on that to z's comment.

 

A couple of unnumbereds I've had went through a FFLs. Both times they insisted that the date either WAS the SN or that it was close enough for them, effectively making the date the SN.

 

By then, who really cares anymore!!!

[flaco]

BradD-

 

Just a few weeks back, I went to the range with my cousin, who is a retired Captain from our (small) local PD.

 

On the way back, he was telling about a friend, whom he had given an action to .

 

The friend cleaned the action up, and removed the s/n.

 

My cousin turned the action in for disposal.

 

I could tell he was wistful about it.

 

Sad at the waste.

 

If I read you right, all the guy had to do was have the old s/n stamped or engraved somewhere on the action.

 

Actually, the topic came up again about a week ago with a top-end stockmaker. I was talking actions, and mentioned the Mark X. As I'm certain you know, these play to mixed reviews.

 

Although the old ones are generally considered superior to the more contemporary Charles Dalys, they don't perhaps get the recognition due a modern Mauser action made with good steel and using machines obtained from FN.

 

Apparently I was dismissive of the Mark Xs, and the stockmaker suggested that he had client for whom he had stocked three. All top-of-the-line work.

 

Subsequently, the metal guy removed all Mark X markings, and moved the s/n from the right hand side to the left. Being careful to engrave the new one in before removing the old.

 

Then the actions were off to the engraver, for the full nine yards.

 

The stockmaker seemed impressed.

 

He seemed to favor the Mark X over the '09 I'm working on right now.

 

Anyway, I'd like to welcome you to MFRC. I know I'm not the only one grateful for your posts.

 

You've made some important contributions.

 

flaco

[montea6b]

The number on the bottom is 8395. Not sure what to make of that. I think I'll just leave everything as is. After all that is what was recorded on the transfer paperwork, I don't care if it's visible or not. Never had an ATF agent check my rifle's serial number in the field or range before, and have no reason to anticipate it happening. Requesting a new number seems like more hassle than it's worth.

[montea6b]

Couldn't help but ruminate on some of Flaco's comments above...

 

"The friend cleaned the action up, and removed the s/n. My cousin turned the action in for disposal."

 

If removal of the serial number is a Federal crime, the receiver is now evidence of this "crime". Would not destruction of this evidence also be a crime?

 

Now I'm certainly not advocating turning in a friend for such a mistake, don't get me wrong, but who was the action turned in to for this destruction? The police department? And would they accept such evidence of a crime for destruction without so much as initiating an investigation?

 

I'm just trying to apply the law literally, dispassionately, and without regard to common sense or keeping within the spirit and intent of the regulation as our legal system often seems to encourage.

 

So, what other options are there for the law abiding citizen should this situation arise? I would assume that the original serial number was not recorded anywhere as restoration of this number would be for me the most logical way to remedy the problem.

 

Legal? I don't know. Moral and ethical? Absolutely. Such an action is certainly in compliance with the intent, if not the letter of the law. As much so as this:

 

"Subsequently, the metal guy removed all Mark X markings, and moved the s/n from the right hand side to the left. Being careful to engrave the new one in before removing the old."

 

Was this legal? I don't know... The old one was removed...

 

IF the above is OK, yet re-marking one mistakenly obliterated is NOT, I submit that it does not pass the common sense test. The only difference in the two is one of chronology. Receiver "A", for a time, existed without a serial number, while receiver "B" existed for a time with two.

 

Not exactly a gross violation of the spirit and intent of the regulation to be sure.

 

OK, I'll shut up now!

 

Sometimes I think too much. Especially when I've had too much coffee late at night.

[Sailormilan2]

Okay, I read once, many moons ago, that a serial number could be removed..............but....................one had to have it written down, and the tools nearby to put it back on.

Basically, if one was working a firearm, and needed to polish it enough that the serial number was removed, it was okay as long as you were ready to put it back on. You couldn't just leave it off.

 

[BradD]

You know, that's a good point. It would be worthy of a BATFE legal opinion as to the legality of a simple enhancing of a number which has gotten dim due to weak stamping, restoration or wear.

 

Logically (not always the way the law works) it seems like if it were in the same original place and the same exact number there should be some kind of verification process to allow it.

 

I'll try to contact our local office for an opinion. If I get anything I'll post it.

 

Brad