Doble Troble Posted July 12, 2005 Report Share Posted July 12, 2005 Can't hit the barn door from inside inaccurate. I shot 15 rounds and had to stop because I was putting holes into neighboring targets. I'm talking 3 foot spray at 100 yds. This is with the surplus ammo in the can that is on sale at Century. I hope its not the ammo because I've got ~ 400 rounds of it. The rifle itself is a bit banged-up without any finish left. It has a kewl hammer and sickle stamp on the receiver ring. It all seems tight and the bore has good rifling. I have Mausers with much worse looking bores that are still decent shooters. I guess this may be a candidate for counterboring. Can a barrel be counterbored by hand? I doubt I'll be able to sell it and I don't have room for such a remarkably inaccurate rifle. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
swamp_thing Posted July 12, 2005 Report Share Posted July 12, 2005 I have a 91/30 that seems to have fallen into the same catagory as this when it was purchased. Got mine from a guy that swears it would not do any better than 18" groups at 100 yards with his surplus ammo. Funny thing is this same ammo shots good in his other rifles. After I got the gun I removed it from the stock and gave it a good cleaning. The rifling was dark and had some pitting, but certainly not the worst I have had. Upon reassembly I made certain that I had the receiver screws tightened equally and snugly. Took it out with Sellior and Bellot 180 grain soft point ammo, and viola, about 1-1/2 to 2 inch groups at 100 yards consistantly. Former owner was with me and wanted it back but of course I still possess the rifle. Don't give up too soon on the rifle or the ammo, it just might be that the particular rifle does not like the ammo or it may be not properly seated in the bedding. If the muzzle needed counterboring I would think it would have obvious signs of elongation from the cleaning rods. Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stan in S C Posted July 12, 2005 Report Share Posted July 12, 2005 Try re-crowning first. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShooterTom Posted July 12, 2005 Report Share Posted July 12, 2005 Doble, How does the muzzle look when u put a bullet in the muzzle? Is there rifleing? Or does it swallow the bullet? If there is still rifleing I would try the carragie bolt with valve grinding compound. To clean up the crown first. As far as counterboring I have heard of horror stories of doing it with a hand drill. Others will say they have done it. I don't think I would. Thats just me though. Tom Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RGRWJB Posted July 13, 2005 Report Share Posted July 13, 2005 If you can buy a Finnish trigger / sear and replace the exisitng one, you will find the gun will be easier to hit with. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doble Troble Posted July 13, 2005 Author Report Share Posted July 13, 2005 Well guys, thanks for all of the good advice. I got out the minimaglight and had a look down the muzzle and sure enough the rifling of three of the lands ends before the end of the barrel. The fourth peters-out right at the muzzle. It looks like if I could counterbore 1/2" I could restore the crown. I've heard that pulling the bbl is a PITA - but a PITA to one fellow is a fun adventure to the next, and I'm usually the next kind. If I could get the bbl off I could take .5" off with the lathe and recrown. If bbl removal really is a PITA maybe I could make a counterboring reamer that would be usable by hand. I might have to make both a rougher and a bottoming finisher. Of course the real concern is what happens if I do all of this and it shoots 8"? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emul8 Posted July 16, 2005 Report Share Posted July 16, 2005 What happens, Doble Troble? Expect to hear this: "My, that's a lovely wallhanger you have there....". Just kidding. If I understand this stuff right, counterboring may just solve the problem handily for you. I have heard of many, many people who have counterbored Mosin-Nagants and they are able to shoot them accurately, though perhaps not AS accurately as a Mosin with a pristine barrel, but then that wouldn't be unusual. However, I don't know that any of the folks I've heard of have counterbored their own Mosins, I think that's how they arrived or were purchased. I would think that somewhere there's got to be someone who's done it themselves. Ah, here's link to something that might be of interest to you...I can't make sense of it, but maybe you can? Home counterboring I don't think I have it in me to remove a barrel from a Mosin-Nagant...but if you think it'll be fun, I say have at it! Are you a masochist? Good luck! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doble Troble Posted July 16, 2005 Author Report Share Posted July 16, 2005 Emul8, Thanks very much for the helpful links! I'm not exactly sure about what they mean by negative rake but I've got a Machinery's Handbook and so should be able to figure it out. I think I'll drill about 1/2" with a regular drill and then clean-up the crown with an endmill. As bad as it shoots right now I don't have anything to lose - which is why these milsurps are such a great thing. I don't think I'm a masochist, but I am probably obsessive. Thanks again! I'll let you guys (and gals) know how this risky scheme pans-out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
swamp_thing Posted July 16, 2005 Report Share Posted July 16, 2005 Doble, I have on one occasion counterbored a barrel for a 30/30 using a bit chucked on the drill press. It did turn out well and eliminated the problem that I had, which was bad pitting right at the muzzle. One thing though that I think would be a real good idea is after you have done your counterboring, take a cotton ball and push it through the bore from the chamber end. As it exits the muzzle check to see if it comes out cleanly or if it is pulling strands of cotton off as it goes through the newly cut crown. This will tell you if there are any burrs that could constitute an obstructed bore. I have used this method on some of my own rifles and it will quickly show any problems that might exist. Hope this helps. Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emul8 Posted July 16, 2005 Report Share Posted July 16, 2005 Ah, obsessive...a far more eloquent (and probably descriptive...) word than masochist! It's hell getting old...not being able to remember the proper words for things! LOL! Yes, like I said, I knew nothing at all of the stuff mentioned around machining in that link, but it seemed that at least a couple of the people there were able to successfully counterbore their rifles, and didn't one of them mention having done so to a FAL? Man, I would be far more likely to experiment with counterboring a crappy-shooting Mosin-Nagant than a FAL, but maybe that guy was more confident in his abilities than I am! I think it's great that you are willing, even wanting to do the extent of work that you want to attempt on your 91/30, Doble Troble. I'm pretty obsessive/masochistic (lol!) about some things, but nothing at all like that! I really do hope that you'll post your results, because no matter the outcome, your experience will likely benefit someone else here who may confront some similar situation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Robert357 Posted July 18, 2005 Report Share Posted July 18, 2005 What I have found in my 91/30 is that the barrel needed to be cleaned, and cleaned, and cleaned and then cleaned some more prior to getting reasonable 2 inch accuracy at 100 yards. On a good day with good light and the iron sites I can do a bit better than this, but it is still very good for iron sites and a $79 rifle. To clean mine, I plugged the barrel with a lead bullet, soaked the barrel for a couple of days with bore cleaning, while the rifle was verticle in a vise with the muzzel on a rag on the floor. After the soaking to loosen things up, I ran oversized (8 mm Mauser & .338 bronze brushes) through the bore, then wet patches, then bronze brushes, then wet patches, then clean patches. The I broke out the bore cream (a very mild abrasive) and cleaned the bore some more. Then I went back to wet patches and dry patches and some bronze brushing. After repeating the process a few times over several days, I was sick of cleaning the barrel, but it did make a heck of a difference. I also took the rifle apart (including the wood) and cleaned cosmoline (or the Russian equivalent) out of everything. Tightening screws properly is also important. I suspect that the MN 1891/30 accuracy can be improved with some tinkering short of counterboring and recrowning the muzzle. Most of the ones I have seen at the range ,once they are properly sited in (which usually involves adding something to the front sight-like a roll pin or a longer metal rod for a front sight), usually shoot about 2 inches at 100 yards. They do have a kick, so you might want to buy a shoulder recoil pad to wear when you shoot, especially if you are putting lots of round through the thing. Actually, the kick is why I started to handload reduced cast lead bullets for this rifle. They are fun to shoot and easy on the shoulder. Good luck. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
swamp_thing Posted July 26, 2005 Report Share Posted July 26, 2005 Doble, you certainly have gotten some good advise from the others on this old rifle. I was wondering, have you gotten to do anymore with it yet. Let us know what route you take and what the results of them are. As I stated before, they are amoung my favorite old rifles. Seems that they have a way of growing on a fellow. Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doble Troble Posted July 26, 2005 Author Report Share Posted July 26, 2005 Dave, I counter bored it with a hand drill! I haven't gotten a chance to get out to the range with it yet. I'll report back when I do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
swamp_thing Posted July 26, 2005 Report Share Posted July 26, 2005 Doble, Glad to hear that you went ahead and counterbored it. I am sure that it will make a definate improvement if the muzzle was worn as you described. Did you try the cotton ball through it to make sure you had no burrs from the bit? Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RGRWJB Posted July 28, 2005 Report Share Posted July 28, 2005 Most of those burrs will be small in nature and shooting it will fire lap the new cut into the bore. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
usmc0332 Posted October 5, 2005 Report Share Posted October 5, 2005 I have an M38, and a 91/30. I was dissapointed with their accuracy. I tried some silver bear ammo in my M38, and it loves it. I have a red dot scope on a Darrels scout mount on it. I have carried it deer hunting with wolf 200gr softpoints. I shot 3 100yard groups about 1 1/2 inches with silver bear, best yet. The red dot is a bit large for hair splitting precision, but it sure is cool. I love this little carbine. Now I just need to see if my shotgun 91/30 likes this ammo, sure hope so. Thanks Keith Semper Fi Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RGRWJB Posted October 6, 2005 Report Share Posted October 6, 2005 usmc Make sure the receiver screws are tight. I have an M38, and a 91/30. I was dissapointed with their accuracy. I tried some silver bear ammo in my M38, and it loves it. I have a red dot scope on a Darrels scout mount on it. I have carried it deer hunting with wolf 200gr softpoints. I shot 3 100yard groups about 1 1/2 inches with silver bear, best yet. The red dot is a bit large for hair splitting precision, but it sure is cool. I love this little carbine. Now I just need to see if my shotgun 91/30 likes this ammo, sure hope so. Thanks Keith Semper Fi 4670[/snapback] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swede Posted October 29, 2005 Report Share Posted October 29, 2005 Okay, you have peaked my curiosity. How does it shoot now? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doble Troble Posted November 9, 2005 Author Report Share Posted November 9, 2005 Well, I finally got a chance to shoot it. Its gone from (literally) barn door accuracy to somewhere around 6 - 8 ". This was with surplus 198 gr ammo. It turns-out that this ammo I bought in a giant sardine can is pretty good stuff. My accurate M38 puts it into a nice group, probably 4" with occaisional flyer. The groups with the formerly inaccurate 91/30 seemed to start opening up after the first 15 rounds or so. Another problem is that it shoots the stuff about 2 feet high. I'll work on fabricating a higher front sight post and give it a good scrubbing and check it out again soon. Anyway, in cases of hopelessly inaccurate milsurps, I think that hand drill counter-boring is a reasonable approach. Of course if I had a bigger lathe I'd have used that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
swamp_thing Posted November 9, 2005 Report Share Posted November 9, 2005 Glad to hear that things have improved with the counterboring. At least you are now in the ball park with the rifle and maybe a bit of tweaking with the bedding or such might bring it in even more. The taller front sight would sure help with the elevation problems. Gives a guy a real good feeling to go ahead with something like this and have it be successful doesn't it? Happy shooting Doble. swamp_thing Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MauserILike Posted December 14, 2005 Report Share Posted December 14, 2005 Is it worth the effort to maybe bore these rifles out to a new caliber then neck sizing with a forming die . Say bore these to 8mm and then have a new rifle all together.. 8x54r I would think these rifles are not worth the effort. Paying less than a hundred dollars for a rifle and then spending 2 or 3 hundred to have it bored out to a bigger caliber might be a waste of time but it would certainly improve the accuracy. I know that this practice was done quite a bit back in the days when the flint locks were still being used.. Shoot till it won't shoot then have it bored to a bigger caliber and keep on shooting. MIL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RGRWJB Posted December 17, 2005 Report Share Posted December 17, 2005 Interesting Is it worth the effort to maybe bore these rifles out to a new caliber then neck sizing with a forming die . Say bore these to 8mm and then have a new rifle all together.. 8x54r I would think these rifles are not worth the effort. Paying less than a hundred dollars for a rifle and then spending 2 or 3 hundred to have it bored out to a bigger caliber might be a waste of time but it would certainly improve the accuracy. I know that this practice was done quite a bit back in the days when the flint locks were still being used.. Shoot till it won't shoot then have it bored to a bigger caliber and keep on shooting. MIL 8496[/snapback] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FC Posted December 19, 2005 Report Share Posted December 19, 2005 All surplus ammo is junk! Try reloads or commercial. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Hangranade Posted February 10, 2006 Report Share Posted February 10, 2006 Try slugging your barrel and hand load ammo to match your barrel. I most cases 303 .311 bullets 150gr,174gr or 180gr work well in Nagants. Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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