724wd Posted May 16, 2006 Report Share Posted May 16, 2006 just wondering what rounds would be suitable for a rifle shooting rimmed rounds.... like a siamese or a M95 straight pull..... i understand they both fire the 8xXX R cartridge, just curious as to what a person might do with one.. i have heard, i think, of a .444 on a siamese. just exploring some options.... i dont have either of these rifles, yet.... :-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
z1r Posted May 16, 2006 Report Share Posted May 16, 2006 just wondering what rounds would be suitable for a rifle shooting rimmed rounds.... like a siamese or a M95 straight pull..... i understand they both fire the 8xXX R cartridge, just curious as to what a person might do with one.. i have heard, i think, of a .444 on a siamese. just exploring some options.... i dont have either of these rifles, yet.... :-) The 45-70 was a very popular conversion for the Siamese. However, it worked better in the gunwriter's stories than it did in reality. The .444 which I would love to do has a rim size that is a good bit smaller than the 8x52r. Oddly enough, the 8x56R which the M95 uses is very close in size to the 8x52R. Components for the 8x56r are readily available now. I plan on building on ein 7.63x54R someday. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
724wd Posted May 16, 2006 Author Report Share Posted May 16, 2006 Z1r, good to know.... and just so you don't get tired typing, you don't have to respond to the same thread at Accurate reloading.... :-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
z1r Posted May 16, 2006 Report Share Posted May 16, 2006 Thanks. given all the big bore freaks there be prepared to hear lots of folks say, do the .45-70. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
roscoedoh Posted May 16, 2006 Report Share Posted May 16, 2006 I think the 7.62x54r would be the bee's knees considering all the cheap ammo available. Would you barrel it with a .311" or a .308"? Me personally, I've got a .303 Brit planned but that one's on the back burner for now. I'll probably get to it after I'm done paying for the land and the house and shop and college and etc... But I do have one planned. What's more, if a fellow wanted to be sho' nuff different, how about a 30-40 Krag? I imagine it would feed quite well through a Mauser. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
724wd Posted May 17, 2006 Author Report Share Posted May 17, 2006 not finding a lot of info on the cartridge dimensions for the 8x56R (or the 8x52R), i have come under the impression that at least the 8x56R is similar in case head size to the 7.62x54R. am i correct in this? i have the 7.62x54 at .570 head, 2.105 trimmed length, and 3.048 COL. so if we assume that this has some similarity to the target 8x56 & 8x52 for either the M95 or the Siamese, this leads us to the following choices for rebarreling... going through my hornady reloading manual, i find the following rimmed cartridges.... 7x56R - .524, 2.549, 3.291 .303 Brit - .540, 2.212, 3.075 30-40 krag - .545, 2.304, 3.089 405 Win - . 543, 2.573, 3.175 .444 - .514, 2.215, 2.570 .45-70 - .608, 2.095, 2.295 so, none of these have the same size head diameter... but if you need to go UP, that's ok, it's like going up on a mauser. does this rule out the smaller rim diameter cartridges? that only leaves the 45-70... or would you (or could you) solder a reducer ring to the face of the bolt? i have heeded Z1r's advice and understand the falacy that is the siamese 45-70 feeding flawlessly.... but i know little (ok, nothing) about the M95... other than you MUST use the en bloc clip, and the carbines are kickers.... :-) on a siamese action, can you use a standard mauser bolt to make using a smaller head size cartridge more feasible? sorry for the rambling.... lots of things rattling around in my head about the siamese and M95... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Limpid Lizard Posted May 17, 2006 Report Share Posted May 17, 2006 My Siamese is going to be a 30/40. I have a 1/10 Pac Nor on the bench and a Claro stock. The reamer was made by Kiff and has a Palma throat in it. I piddle with this during lulls in my other projects. 45/70 just was not worth the feeding hassles. Beside, I have an 1895 that provides all the abuse I need. The 45/70 is easier on one's body than the .444. LL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
z1r Posted May 17, 2006 Report Share Posted May 17, 2006 If I remember correctly the 8x56R and 8x52R both had rims of about .555" and caseheads of about .500". The 7.62x54R's rim is slightly large but should open up easily. I believe 7.62x54R ammo is far more universal than .30-40 krag, thus my leanings toward it. For the M95 I think the .405 might be a neat thumper although, there are no flies on the 8x56R either. I have decided to try the issue barrel first and see what kind of accuracy I get. It would easily surpass the old .33 Winchester ballistics. That an d the fact that compnents are easily obtainable as is factory ammo. Much easier than messing with wildcats. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sonic1 Posted May 17, 2006 Report Share Posted May 17, 2006 heres a good web site that listes metric rifle cartridges http://members.shaw.ca/cstein0/metric.htm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BradD Posted May 18, 2006 Report Share Posted May 18, 2006 Hmmpf..okay fine, I'll be first. 45-70!!! I've done three and they are all great. I can load a 350 gr RN at 2100-2200 fps and the pigs hit the ground, dead before they get there. They are also great handling. Wouldn't trade any of them. I guess that's why I have three. Okay, now the rest of the story. Mike's right, there's more problems to overcome than Carter has pills. But if you like tinkering with guns, then that's what you came here for. The bolt face has to be opened and the feed rails have to be opened, much like a mag. Then it won't push the case out right and you'll have to try follower after follower until one works, then it will jam at the feedramp and you will have to grind and polish that until it feeds properly. Once done, it stays done. Timney makes a trigger, interestingly, with or without the side safety. I like the side safety and commercial shroud. Problem: the firing pin on a Siamese is rotated 90 degrees from a 98, so if you put the pin in the comm shroud it is rotated 1/4 turn and the cocking piece no longer will work. Solution: get a 98 Kurz cp which is slightly longer and the slot is 90 degrees over. You then need to remove a bit of material from the backflash diverter collar at the front of the pin and reset the fp nose protrusion. Voila! Course, lots of folks prefer variant of the orig shroud, and it is easier. In addition to things like the charger hump on the bridge, there is a couple other uglifications which need to be addressed. Some have a really ugly ridge down each side of the rcvr for the wonderful dust cover to ride on. Gotta go. Then there are some really ugly divots left on the side of the recvr by the port. They are best filled and dressed. That is an art and unless you're an artist, you better find someone who's knowledgeable about steels and filling in funny little holes. Two of my three have been filled and they look good. I'm no artist, I had them done and glad I did. All bolts are always mismatched so be sure to true rcvr, lap lugs and square the bolt face. The bolt shroud lock is always worn and never works works, but they just use the standard bolt lock. Figure on a new lock and spring, that's always worked. Finding a scope base is always interesting. I have had both small ring and LR bases work, usually SR is best. Always takes a shim though. Most of the bullets are for lever rifles and just don't work in a bolt, unless you want to move up to 500 grs, not me. I like the Horn 350 RN, but I have some Nosler 300 gr Protected Point that I am going to try soon, I hope. It goes on, but I always enjoyed it and was always happy and I love that big ol' thumper cartridge. They all shoot one inch groups. Just think of it as a bigger challenge than usual. Brad Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gun nutty Posted May 18, 2006 Report Share Posted May 18, 2006 De Haas mentions in his book that the Siamese should (will?) feed the 458 American (458 X 2") better than the 45/70. I imagine that the 450 marlin would be just as good a candidate. Both cartridges offer 45/70 performance and capacity in a case better suited to a bolt action. The SMLE will also feed the 45/70 if the magazine is altered. Gibbs Rifle Co. offered these conversions. I handled one and thought the barrel was heavier than I liked, but it's a "do-able" thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
z1r Posted May 18, 2006 Report Share Posted May 18, 2006 Since the siamese is designed to feed a rimmed cartridge why waste an action on a .458 short when any old 98 will feed a 458 Win mag just as easily? And the 458 can be loaded down to 45-70 specs but not vice versa. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ken98k Posted May 18, 2006 Report Share Posted May 18, 2006 Hmmpf..okay fine, I'll be first. 45-70!!! I've done three and they are all great. I can load a 350 gr RN at 2100-2200 fps and the pigs hit the ground, dead before they get there. They are also great handling. Wouldn't trade any of them. I guess that's why I have three. Okay, now the rest of the story. Mike's right, there's more problems to overcome than Carter has pills. But if you like tinkering with guns, then that's what you came here for. The bolt face has to be opened and the feed rails have to be opened, much like a mag. Then it won't push the case out right and you'll have to try follower after follower until one works, then it will jam at the feedramp and you will have to grind and polish that until it feeds properly. Once done, it stays done. Timney makes a trigger, interestingly, with or without the side safety. I like the side safety and commercial shroud. Problem: the firing pin on a Siamese is rotated 90 degrees from a 98, so if you put the pin in the comm shroud it is rotated 1/4 turn and the cocking piece no longer will work. Solution: get a 98 Kurz cp which is slightly longer and the slot is 90 degrees over. You then need to remove a bit of material from the backflash diverter collar at the front of the pin and reset the fp nose protrusion. Voila! Course, lots of folks prefer variant of the orig shroud, and it is easier. In addition to things like the charger hump on the bridge, there is a couple other uglifications which need to be addressed. Some have a really ugly ridge down each side of the rcvr for the wonderful dust cover to ride on. Gotta go. Then there are some really ugly divots left on the side of the recvr by the port. They are best filled and dressed. That is an art and unless you're an artist, you better find someone who's knowledgeable about steels and filling in funny little holes. Two of my three have been filled and they look good. I'm no artist, I had them done and glad I did. All bolts are always mismatched so be sure to true rcvr, lap lugs and square the bolt face. The bolt shroud lock is always worn and never works works, but they just use the standard bolt lock. Figure on a new lock and spring, that's always worked. Finding a scope base is always interesting. I have had both small ring and LR bases work, usually SR is best. Always takes a shim though. Most of the bullets are for lever rifles and just don't work in a bolt, unless you want to move up to 500 grs, not me. I like the Horn 350 RN, but I have some Nosler 300 gr Protected Point that I am going to try soon, I hope. It goes on, but I always enjoyed it and was always happy and I love that big ol' thumper cartridge. They all shoot one inch groups. Just think of it as a bigger challenge than usual. Brad Thanks for the info, I just made an offer on a Siamese receiver with the intention of building a 45-70. (after I finish the 4 or 5 project rifles now cluttering my bench) Kenny Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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