Cast Bullets For 7.65 X 53

[Doble Troble]

 

Well guys, I'm lazy and so haven't even slugged the barrel on this Argie, but I know that cast bullets sized to 0.311 don't shoot too well (and they shoot GREAT over 20.0 gr 4198 in my 7.62 x 51 FR-8).

 

In additon to being lazy, I am also cheap, so I don't want to buy a new mold for this rifle. So I looked into how I might make this Lee 180 gr mold cast bigger bullets. There's a GENIUS over at castboolits.gunloads.com named Beagle who figured-out that if you put a couple of pieces of aluminum manifold tape between the blocks of a mold that it casts a few thous bigger with little downside. His description is here. It works great.

 

So now I have 0.314 bullets like I want, but I don't have a way to put gas checks on. I remember reading SOMEWHERE on the web about how someone figured-out that you could use the RCBS bullet puller to crimp on gas checks. I don't remember where otherwise I'd post the link, but this isn't my idea - I've just used it now and it works great so I wanted to share.

 

The pictures show how you can clamp the RCBS puller (which I don't use anymore because I figured-out that wire cutters and a press with shellholder and no die work better (but not for pistol cartridges)) upside-down and thumb in a Hornady gas check, insert the bullet and by turning it snug seat the check as pretty as you please.

 

There's also pix of the finished 7.65 x 53 round. I've done 20 of them and am hoping to get to the range tomorrow before it gets too dark.

 

One more thing about the 7.65 x 53 that I'll mention is that I'm using Lee dies that don't push the shoulders back far enough. This is easily fixed if you have an extra #3 Lee shellholder and grind the top down about 0.010". The belt sander made this easy, but I bet its not too hard with sand paper and a couple of brewskis. But watch your headspace - this is a way to increase it. If you grind too far you can always back out the die. Screw it in until the the action just closes easily on the case - viola! minimum headspace chamber!

 

I made brass out of -06 which might be enough for another post if anyone is interested.

 

I expect that these loads will do about 1500 fps which should be good to 200 yds. Will they be accurate... I'll probably have more work to do there but I'm on it.

[AzRednek]

One more thing about the 7.65 x 53 that I'll mention is that I'm using Lee dies that don't push the shoulders back far enough.

 

We hashed this problem out a few times over the years on this board. The Lee 7.65 die does not use the same shell holder as other die manufactures. Most other 7.65 dies use the same shell holder for the 45 ACP, 30/06 etc. The Lee brand shows another shell holder # to be used with their 7.65 die. Using the correct # Lee shell holder will bump the shoulder back far enough.

 

Another thing you can do to open the mould up slightly. Cast a slug, drill a hole into the slug, put an easy out into the slug and coat the slug with valve grinding compound. Everything I've read says do not use a drill. Rotate the slug and easy out by hand with vice grips attached to the easy out while watching tv. From what I've read it takes anywhere from 15 minutes to 4 hours. Took me apx 20 minutes by hand opening up a 45 cal slug slightly in an aluminum Lee mould.

 

I haven't cast bullets in 7.65 for years. Best I recall my slugs were dropping at .313 and they all worked well in 7.65 Belgium, 7.7 Jap and 303 Brit. I used 30 cal gas checks I opened up slightly with a small socket and later 32 cal gas checks. I used a loose fitting sizing die to install the gas checks and squeeze the lube into the grooves using a Lee 32 cal (.314 I think) sizer. Following Lee's advice I used 30/30 loading data and got some pretty good shooting results. I recall the 7.65 project selling me on Lee's tumble lube. I previously did some the hard way with hard lube, a heater and an RCBS bullet sizer. I couldn't see any difference in accuracy or barrel leading when I compared the two methods.

 

Just curious, how are you lubing your bullets??

[Doble Troble]

Az,

 

I'm tumble lubing them. I also use Cream of Wheat which seems to help lube a bit too.

 

Regarding lapping, I didn't want to change dimensions of this mold because it works good for my 308 bores. But that would be a good option otherwise.

 

Regarding the shellholder, Lee specs their #3 for the 7.65 and #2 for the others. I did try a #2 but still had trouble closing on some rounds.

 

Eventually I'll get a 303-specific mold and the Lee 314 sizer. I thought this work-around would be of interest. It was kind-of fun.

[z1r]

Sounds fun.

 

I have some lighter .312" GC bullets I used to use in my .32 H&R. I may have to try these in my new argie carbine. they'd be for my kid, otherwise I like big heavy bullets at moderate velocities.

 

Tell how they work. Good luck.

[AzRednek]

Lee currently has a 160 gr 312 cal mold on their surplus list. I can't remember for sure but the mold I used I believe cast about 175. I used 30/30 loading data for the 170 gr bullet using IMR3031 and Winchester 748. The mold along with my 7.65 die set is another one of those things I loaned out and never got back.

 

http://www.leeprecision.com/cgi/catalog/br...og/surplus.html

[Doble Troble]

Well guys, it did about 3" at 50 yds. Not too bad for stock Mauser sights and my eyes. I could hit paper plates at 100 yds but didn't have too many rounds left to assess accuracy. The load was 20 gr 4198 and COW up to the neck and seat the bullet to just below the last grease groove.

 

I can seat these much further out which may help accuracy. Also I'll load some up in 0.5 gr increments around 20 gr 4198 and see if I can make some raggedy holes.

 

I also tried some 100 gr 32 cal bullets (that I use for 32 ACP) over 12 gr 2400. I shot these last and they leaded up the barrel and sucked accuracy-wise. Maybe I should have tried Unique.

 

Thanks for the surplus link, AZ. I'm trying to be cheap, but I think I'll splurge and get the right sized mold. Have you tried that one?

[z1r]

11 grains of Unique is what I'd use in a .30-30 with a 170 grain cast bullet.

 

Need to get some since I plan on light bullets loads in both my .30-30 and this Argie.

[AzRednek]

11 grains of Unique is what I'd use in a .30-30 with a 170 grain cast bullet.

 

Need to get some since I plan on light bullets loads in both my .30-30 and this Argie.

 

The load I was using was comparable to a 30/30 jacketed bullet load of the apx same weight. I've had dismal erratic results using light loads in rifles. One exception though and they weren't my loads. Friend of mine put together some 30/06 and 30/30 loads with a single buckshot pellet. Best I recall he was using Unique and a powder load scooped with a Lee spoon and no fillers. With a 03A3 Springfield and an old Winchester 30/30 we spent a couple hours knocking cans off of saw horses apx 25 yards. Neither one of us hardly missed. The pellets almost always penetrated pop and beer cans but heavier cans often went flying with just a dent and no hole. He also put together some weird loads using the old strike anywhere match heads for powder. Not counting a few duds and hang-fires they shot surprisingly good.

 

Thanks for the surplus link, AZ. I'm trying to be cheap, but I think I'll splurge and get the right sized mold. Have you tried that one?

 

I haven't tried that particular Lee mold. The one I did use was a bit heavier, I think. It's been several years since I cast and shot any cast rifle rounds. Friend and I landed a deal we split on Argie mil-surp ammo apx 10 years ago so there hasn't been a need for the cast bullet loads. I've also pulled the components and dumped it in into 303 and 7.7 brass. I still have apx a GI ammo can and a half left. I think it was in this group, somebody was pulling the bullets and powder out of 7.62X39 and dumping it into 7.65 Argie brass he formed form 30/06.

[z1r]

AZ,

 

A gunsmith friend of mine and avid silhouette shooter turned me on to the Unique loads. They are not position sensitive and have worked great for me in the past. I use about 15 grains in my .45-70 with a 400 grain bullet and get moa results.

 

I have a bunch of 65 grain lead flatpoints in .309" and will use this load in the Stevens .30-30 for fun.

 

Funny you mention buckshot, I just found some .315" lead balls in my BP box. I'm gonna give these a whirl in the Argie. There should be practically no recoil, my kid will love it. I hope, lol.

[Doble Troble]

 

Guys although I have to admit I'm lazy I think this proves that I'm much cheaper than I am lazy.

 

This shows the last of two lube steps that I'm trying. I do a first tumble lube and let them dry on wax paper overnight. Then I checked them, then I dipped them to just over the grooves in lube warmed up to flow and cut with mineral spirits to flow even better. I let them set-up for about an hour, blotted the bases and stood them up on fresh paper. There they'll dry overnight. I'm going to try to scrape off and reclaim the drips off the first paper - cheap, cheap, cheap!

 

Tomorrow I'm going to load up groups of five at 19, 19.5, 20, 20.5 and 21 gr 4198 under COW and see if I find a winner.

[AzRednek]

AZ,

 

A gunsmith friend of mine and avid silhouette shooter turned me on to the Unique loads. They are not position sensitive and have worked great for me in the past. I use about 15 grains in my .45-70 with a 400 grain bullet and get moa results.

 

I wonder how a reduced load like that would work in 458 Winnie, anybody tried it?? I'm still wondering what went through my head when I put the 458 together. I intended to put together a reduced 45 cal cast bullet load together for it but haven't got around to it. I realize the price of semi-precious metal had gone up but I really feel like they are breaking it off in our rear ends with the prices of gas checks. I've taken a fancy to the H&R Buffalo Rifle so hopefully some time this year I'll be working on 45/70 loads.

 

I have a bunch of 65 grain lead flatpoints in .309" and will use this load in the Stevens .30-30 for fun.

loads together using both cast and jacketed slugs intended for the 30 carbine.

 

Years ago I did some low recoiling 30/30's. It has been allot of years ago but I think I used 4227 and H-110 powder and bullets both cast and jacketed for the 30 Carbine. Can't say for certain but most likely used 30 Carbine data. Back then I rarely shot paper, either cans or metal dongs and best I remember they did ok and hardly kicked.

 

 

Funny you mention buckshot, I just found some .315" lead balls in my BP box. I'm gonna give these a whirl in the Argie. There should be practically no recoil, my kid will love it. I hope, lol.

 

Best I recall from my friend's experience the trick was getting the ball in without shaving lead. He and his dad loaded as we shot using an old Lee handloader and a tapered punch to expand the neck's rim. If we had any that wouldn't chamber his dad hammered them into the crimp end of the tool. Pretty crude reloading but they chambered, shot and we had a great time that day.

[AzRednek]

Guys although I have to admit I'm lazy I think this proves that I'm much cheaper than I am lazy.

 

I know exactly how you feel!! They don't come much cheaper or lazier than myself. If you have any motor mica try dusting them instead of the second coat. While the lube is still tacky on the bullets just roll them around in a bowl with the motor mica. It kind of fills in any gaps and makes the slugs allot easier to handle. Leaves you with a nice clean bore after shooting.

[AzRednek]

AZ,

 

I use about 15 grains in my .45-70 with a 400 grain bullet and get moa results.

 

I just found that load in my 1960's Lyman Cast Bullet manual. For their 405 gr slug they recomend starting at 13.0 with a max of 16.5 grs of Unique. Found similiar loads shown for 458 Winnie, I'll have to try it.

 

[Doble Troble]

OK, quick range report. I actually ended up loading 19, 20, 21, and 22 gr 4198 using a pinch of polyester pillow filling as a wad to keep the powder at the primer.

 

21 gr was a clear winner and shot into less than 4" at 100 yds. It actually shot into 2 groups that were touching that makes me think that the rifle has two states that it winds up in after a shot, or that I have double vision. I suspect that the double vision explaination is correct as there were clouds intermittently blocking sunlight as I was shooting the groups. But I have a dammed hard time with Mauser sights too.

 

I've got the targets in the trunk of my car, and I plan on taking some pictures, so I'll post them if I don't forget to take them.

 

Based on today's results I'm going to try 20.7, 21.0 and 21.3 gr 4198 to see if any are a clear winner. If not I'll proclaim these beaged bullets over 21 gr 4198 and a pinch of polyester THE LOAD for this 1909 carbine.