I'm Going Insane

[Thor]

The resizing (even though its not "full") may be making your brass *bigger* (most likely in the neck, but there are other possibilities) than your chamber, leading to the chambering problems.

Doble Troble,

I'm glad to hear you say that. I have been told that I don't know what I'm talking about, but it has been my experience that attempting to neck size with full sizing dies definitely makes the brass *bigger*. Maybe in the neck, as you say, or possibly bulging the body, I don't know. I do know that it happens. I am pursuaded that if you want to neck size, you need the proper neck sizing dies, not attempt with full sizer dies.

 

[z1r]

Hmm, I've partial neck sized for years. I back off the dies much like Brenden is doing just enough to avoid bumping the shoulder. Can't say that I've evr had an issue. The only difference that I'm aware of between a neck size die and FL dies is that even if you set the neck size die up to touch the shellholder you cannot move the shoulder. Both dies use the same expander button. I'd look to the button as a possible source of trouble. If you don't lube the neck and or button you could have issues. Some buttons are too large. Mic yours and find out.

[AzRednek]

Jeez. Let's stop playing twenty guesses.

 

Here are the RCBS instructions.

 

Guess you're right Z!! Wouldn't have believed it if I hadn't seen it in writing!! Guess I'm showing my age as I recall the instructions specified a gap and I remember seeing pictures showing it. I started out with Pacific (now Hornady) equipment in 71 and learned to reload using an old 1960's Herters instruction manual. I can only speculate that either the method has changed or older RCBS, Pacific and Herters dies were made differently.

 

Brendon, if you're overwhelmed with everybody's suggestions, call RCBS. Have the die in hand when you call as they will want the numbers on it. I've called them a couple of times for advice. They were very friendly, helpful and best of all they spoke English without an accent!! While you're at it ask to get on their mailing list and get their latest catalog.

 

On two occasions over the years I had problems with reloads that wouldn't chamber, a 223 and 240 Gibbs. RCBS had me send them 3 sample cases and the sizing die. On both occasions RCBS sent new dies, no charge. The Gibbs die was a particular sore spot as it had to come from RCBS' custom shop and the initial price was astronomical. The 223 die RCBS just sent me a small base sizing die body with my old seating stem. The 223 die worked fine in my and my friend's Mini-14 but not my AR-15.

 

 

As far as partial resizing goes, I've been doing it off and on for years. Best I can tell it does seem to expand or change the case's dimentions slightly. It can be used to your advantage with belted mags. I use it currently with 308 Norma and in the past with other belted mags. I play with the setting until I can get a slight drag when closing the bolt. The cartridge will headspace on the shoulder rather than the belt stopping the blow-by at the shoulder. For all the trouble though I didn't see any significant change or improvement in accuracy.

 

 

 

 

[Thor]

Guess you're right Z!! Wouldn't have believed it if I hadn't seen it in writing!!

WHEEW! I'm glad we got that worked out. With that many years at the press, we should be in sync.

 

I partial size too, but it took some learning on how to do it. I was really glad to hear Doble Troble say the case will grow (if not done properly. At least now I know I'm not the only one who has experienced that. Not to sound redundant, but it does need clarifying. Purpose of the die is to squeeze the body back, set the shoulder back, squeeze the neck in, and on reverse stroke the expander sizes the inside of the neck. I don't know how misusing the die makes the brass grow, but I know it does.

 

An initial problem was with a bolt action, but part of my experience on this was in attempting to load for a NEF handirifle. My loads were either too tight and hard to close the action, and for some reason, I punctured primers occasionally, much more than I liked. Or the brass was too loose in the chamber and primer would not ignite. I ended up trading the gun (for my first Swede) and swore off NEF. I recently purchased another NEF and hope I don't have the same problem.

 

Maybe now that we are all in sync, Brendon can correct one problem at a time... and hope the rifle doesn't have to go to the gunsmith. I do believe I would correct current procedure before going out and buying a set of small base dies.

[z1r]

I'd still like to know if Brenden was using once fired brass from the rifle in question or from another rifle? Seems he's said both along the way. That alone could be the problem.

 

I have two .223 bolt rifles. Brass from the savage will not chamber in the Ruger. I just use different brands of brass to keep them straight and I use a Necksize die.

 

While I haven't noticed any difficulties partial length resizing doesn't mean it couldn't happen. The body will be resized some, no doubt. A neck size die is larger in circumfrence so it won't touch the case body. Now that I'm thinking about it, it is possible that the case could lengthen. I'd never notice because all my chambers are setup so that I have a tiny bit of resistence when closing the bolt.

 

I've heard more than one person say they have troubles with the NEF. Unlike high dollar double rifles whose lockups are tighter than fort knox, the NEF tends to be a bit springy. Same goes for leverguns. The brass will gro (lengthen in this case) a bit more upon firing than it would in a bolt gun. The other contributing factor is that unlike a bolt gun break actions have no camming power. On these I would suggest a at least a partial resize. Keep setting the die (further) in until you can consistenetly chamber fired brass.

[Thor]

While I haven't noticed any difficulties partial length resizing doesn't mean it couldn't happen. The body will be resized some, no doubt. A neck size die is larger in circumfrence so it won't touch the case body. Now that I'm thinking about it, it is possible that the case could lengthen. I'd never notice because all my chambers are setup so that I have a tiny bit of resistence when closing the bolt.

 

I've heard more than one person say they have troubles with the NEF. Unlike high dollar double rifles whose lockups are tighter than fort knox, the NEF tends to be a bit springy. Same goes for leverguns. The brass will gro (lengthen in this case) a bit more upon firing than it would in a bolt gun. The other contributing factor is that unlike a bolt gun break actions have no camming power. On these I would suggest a at least a partial resize. Keep setting the die (further) in until you can consistenetly chamber fired brass.

Z, you have stated what I had come to the conclusion was happening to me. The die was squeezing the body in, which in turn pushed the shoulder upward. Since the die did not touch the shoulder with this procedure, I had a brass which had grown in headspace, or should I say resulted in minus zero headspace. I eventually learned how to partial size which squeezes the body and then pushes the should back down. It is definitely a process left to those who have some experience. This experience not only taught me a lot about partial sizing, but also pushed me to a heavier press. The Lee is fine for light work, but not intended for heavy work where the shoulder is exceedingly high.

 

I really liked the NEF handirifle (243) and was a dandy in the woods. It shot Corelokts with subMOA groups, but I wasn't content with factory ammo. NEF does not recommend reloading. Now I know why.

 

The recent purchase is a bull barrel 223. I'm shooting ammo built by an old codger who got too old to reload, has Alzheimers now. He developed it for an AR15 type, but it shoots great in the bull barrel. I acquired over 600 rounds from him so it will be a while before I have to worry about reloading for it.

 

Z, now a question for you. How do you set up for partial sizing? I've heard of people using a coin to set the air gap. Or if you have a set of mechanic's feeler gauges, that could be used.

[z1r]

Thor,

 

I use a highly technical method but I'll do my best to describe it.

 

I back out the dies AWAY from the ram about a turn. Then I insert a case and run the ram up. I look at the neck and see where the brass shows abrasion from being sized. I keep setting the die sdown until that abrasion mark is just shy of the shoulder or when I see the die leave a mark anywhere other than the neck. If I see a mark on the shoulder or body. I stop there and back the die off maybe 1/8th a turn and set the setscrews tight. Now, if I were having trouble getting brass to chamber I would continue this process of turning the die in a little at a time until the brass chambers to my satisfaction.

 

Has worked for me for many many moons.

[AzRednek]

My method is even more technical!! Remove the seating stem and get a feel for it. You will feel the need for an increase in ram pressure when you reach the shoulder. When you get to that point you either want to back off of bear down slightly, trying the various settings in your rifle. I was always satisfied with a slight drag on the closing bolt.

[tomme boy]

Guys, what the grown is called is extrusion. I worked in a metal extrusion plant for 7 years and we would make all kinds of nuts, bolts, ball joints, gears, and on and on. We would take a 1" round bar and press it threw dies and form it into something else.

This is actually what is happening. As you PFL size, the body of the case is sized back down to size. Now, if the shoulder of the die is adjusted up to PFL size, the brass can and will be pushed up to the shoulder. When the brass is being sized down, where else can the brass go but up. That is why you see this happening from time to time.

 

I do not set any of my dies up the way the die makers say to. What I like to do is find brass that was not fired out of my rifle and keep sizing it down until it does chamber. This way I know I am not over working the brass.

[Thor]

Guys, what the grown is called is extrusion.

Yep, that pretty well describes it, but I don't do well with three syllable words. Just teasing.

 

I believe the amount of body taper effects this too. A straight wall shouldn't extrude as much, but a tapered body would extrude more metal upward.

 

In contrast to this moving of metal, when a cartridge is fired, metal flows back to the web and into the primer pocket. I usually cut my primer pockets with a uniformer after every firing instead of just brush cleaning them. If you go several firings without cutting the pockets, they can be the dickens to cut when you do, especially on hard brass like Sellior and Balliot.

[BradD]

Brenden, if you're still reading this,

 

DT and Mike as well as the others gave a good description of the things that CAN be going on. Read them carefully and be analytical with what you are doing.

 

The die has to press hard against the shell holder in FL sizing, If you have been backing off from tight contact, then you have found your problem. Go the other way.

 

The most important question asked here is still unanswered: HOW MANY TIMES HAS THAT BRASS BEEN RELOADED???

 

If it is once your die adjustments are screwed up.

 

If it is many times your brass is work hardened and just springs back when sized to the old dimensions. You have to anneal it or throw it away and get new brass.

 

Brad

[Brenden]

well well well, Mike, just for clarification, though it doesn't matter now, The brass was fired in a model 70, brass wouldn't work in that firearm, but, I'm resizing for a j.c higgins. See what i mean, going form one gun to the next. Also this was once fired factor ammo, winchester to be exact. Sorry for all the confusion, my head hasn't been on straight for a few weeks now, too much stuff going on.

 

So, i sat down this morning and pondered, fiddled, thought back to what everyone has said, and tried. Die touched the shell holder, turn a 1/4, no go in chamber. Turn a 1/2, still no go. Take her one full turn...bingo!, she chambers in the gun, put a bullet in there....bingo again!!! damn i'm doing good So needless to say the chamber is fine, just a little finkey. Now i'm back into production, loading shells like its no ones business. I read everyones thoughts and comments on partial sizing, or neck sizing, and i've done this on my 7mm, and still do with great results, but after this firing, i'll fl size. I'm just feel better about fl sizing for a hunting gun cuz i've heard of hard extraction, and the way i shoot, i need that fired round to come out fast. and my t/c doest kick em out and i'm slow anyway with my big most of the time cold hands. so there she be...i'm slinging lead.

 

A BIG THANK YOU TO ALL THAT HAVE HELPED....I GREATLY APPERICATE EVERYONES HELP AND YES I DID LEAN SOMETHING SO DON'T GO TO SLEEP FEELING WORTHLESS!!!

 

I should sign off by saying "Love, brenden" but i'll save that for another day.

Brenden

 

[Thor]

Like Hannibal sez, "I love it when a plan comes together".

[Brenden]

yeppers, she came together, the chamber is a little on the tight side, and the throat is very short. Its a good shooting gun but picky. Even some factory fodder won't chamber well. Like mike said i just need to slow down and keep calm. I'll admit this time i flipped out because everything ususally goes smooth and i turn out good ammo. All well, i learned alot, and will contuine to do so.

brenden

[z1r]

Glad everything worked out. Let this be a lesson that when your head isn't clear you should avoid handloading. Seriously, it just takes one distraction to cause a big problem.

 

My JC Higgins also has a tightish chamber.