How Tough Is A Turk?

[indyeyedoc]

Hey guys,

 

I am new to the group and am an amateur, aspiring, gun nut. I know little of nothing at this point but would very much like to learn some basic gunsmithing skills, re-barreling, re-chambering, wildcatting,etc. I do have access to a lathe. I know you guys probably get tired of answering all these new kid questions but here goes. I recently bought a K.Kale Turk Mauser for $40. Barrel is rusted to the point of being worthless so I want to try my hand at converting it to a new cartridge. My first question is "Are Turks as safe as large ring 98s?" How much pressure is a safe upper limit? I've seen them chambered in .308 and even higher pressure cartridges is this wise? I'm not looking to push any limits here and would like to avoid the cost of having the receiver carburized if possible.

Second question: I live in Indiana which has the most illogical gun laws for deer hunting that I know of. Basically, rifles can be used but catridge length cannot exceed 1.625 inches and caliber must be .357 or greater. So odd cartridges like .458 SOCOM, 358 Gremlin (7.62x39 necked to 35cal), 35/6mm BR, and 357 Herrett (trimmed) are all fair game. I am especially interested in the .458 SOCOM which is a .50 AE necked down to .458 cal with rim rebated to .470. Pressure runs less than 40,000 psi. Question is which cartridge to try? Is the fat SOCOM case an issue with the small ring barrel? Will the Turk feed a rimmed cartridge like the Herrett?

When I asked about my pressure and safety concerns, a gunsmith friend of mine told me "you couldn't fit enough powder in such a small case to blow up that action". Valid point? Please weigh in and thanks for all your opinions. Sorry for the long post but us new guys really appreciate having this resource.

Thanks

Mark

[8uck5nort]

Welcome!

 

I started this hobby of mine about a year ago and have been hooked ever since. Live in Indiana too so I know exactly what you are talking about for our deer rifles. I am currently working on a Carcano that has been rebarreled to .357 Mag. I hope to have it finished by September or October of this year for the upcoming deer season.

 

I am planning on a doing a M91 mosin in a rimmed pistol cartridge, maybe .454 Casull or .45 Long colt for the 2011 season. I just picked up a mosin and have the new trigger from timney on order. But I got to finish the other 3 projects I have running first.

 

I also have been looking for a rimless cartridge that would be Indiana legal and can stick on a mauser action, a wildcat variation of the 7.62x39 maybe????? Just need to get the bullet diameter up past .357. That would be pretty cool.

 

What part of Indiana are you in? I live about 20 minutes outside the Lafayette area. Rivitr is also close to the Lafayette area.

[rivitir]

Yes Welcome! Glad to have you part of the group.

 

Indiana laws are crazy when it comes to deer hunting.

 

I've said this many times to 8uck and he doesn't beleive me but I would suggest you look at .357 max round (biggest legal deer round in indiana I know of). Its legal then you can shoot .357 max, .357 mag, & 38 spl plinking ammo.

 

http://357maximum.com/

 

But since this is your first project I would also suggest you stick with something a little simpler until after you get over the learning curve (I should know because I'm still learning myself). You may want to look into getting yourself a carcano like 8uck mentioned. He's had great success with them for the rimmed rounds and you can pick them up for less then $40. Good Indy deer rifle.

 

You can always chamber your current rifle to something like .308 or 65.x55 or 260 Rem and the list goes on.

[indyeyedoc]

Hello 8uck and Rivitir.....Good to know a couple of fellow Hoosiers who think our hunting laws are nuts. 8uck, I'd be real interested in hearing about your Carcano conversions. How strong are those actions? I do have a Mosin as well and have considered trying something with it but I've heard too many concerns about their safety with high pressure cartridges. Will it handle a .454 Casull? I know there were some .308 Winchester conversions early on that are considered unsafe to fire as a result of action failures. I've heard collectors in other forums say stay far away from these. As far as the .454 goes, awesome round. I've got a .454 leveraction that does 2400 fps with 240 grain xtps and I've been very pleased with it. Rivitir, I have looked at .357 max and still haven't ruled it out. I agree its a nice round for the purpose given our restrictions. YOu should both check out www.bfgcartridges.com, as they have some very cool ideas for Indiana hunters. I think I'm going to try something like a shortened .358 Winchester on my turk action but my main concern was safety, I just didn't want to surpass a safe pressure limit.

[Dr.Hess]

A Turk Mauser is as strong as any other 98 Mauser. The only "small ring" part of it is the barrel thread, not the receiver. I have a couple Turks, including one I rebarreled (well, I sent it off to Montana Rifleman for rebarrel) to 30-06. The other is a hibred 95-98 thing in 8MM Mauser. I'm with your gunsmith friend. I don't think you could put enough conventional powder into one to hurt it in anything you mentioned.

 

357 max is a pretty potent round. I knew a guy that shot NRA Centerfire Hunter Pistol with a Contender in that. Don't think he ever had a ram not go down.

[tinkerfive]

I do have a Mosin as well and have considered trying something with it but I've heard too many concerns about their safety with high pressure cartridges. I know there were some .308 Winchester conversions early on that are considered unsafe to fire as a result of action failures.

 

I suggest that you check back through the posts under the Mosin Naget forum.

What you have stated above I believe to be incorrect as a result of the story being repeated from one

person to the next.

 

To my knowledge there is no question of the Mosin action strength. The 7.62X54R is near equal to 30-06.

The unsafe conversion had to do with the barrel not the action when converted to 30-06 not .308.

The barrel was first shortened removing the portion of the original chamber that was larger than the

30-06 then the chamber was cut for the longer 30-06 which extended the chamber out to where the

barrel tapered down too thin and some barrels had failed.

If a converted Mosin were re-barreled with a proper barrel I'd think it to be as safe as any properly

barreled Mauser.

The interesting point to the story as you tell it is that if the conversion were to .308 instead of

30-06, it would have been safer because the .308 is so much shorter.

 

Don't take my word for it, check it out for your self. The discussion on this wasn't that long ago.

It shouldn't be too hard to find.

 

Tinker

[Guest 8uck5nort]

I will get some pics posted of my Carcano to .357 mag project in the next couple of weeks. I am in the final stages of getting the stock finished. I am working on building out my bottom metal and will get the concept build posted. I got rid of the military trigger guard. I selected the scope and will be working on the scope mount next.

 

As far as I know the Carcano is a very well made action that got a bad rap as a poorly made action due to poor accuracy reports. That turned out to be the bullet diameter of a 6.5 mm carcano. It is .004 larger than most commercial 6.5 mm.

 

I am dreaming up my 2012 deer gun and am leanig towards developing my first wildcat round built around 7.62x39 cartridge. Don't know yet but the more I think about it the more I like the idea of a rimless Indiana legal deer cartridge.

[ken98k]

The other is a hibred 95-98 thing in 8MM Mauser.

 

What is a 95-98 hibred thing?

[Dr.Hess]

It's a 98 Turk that cocks on closing. I found a web page once with all (or probably most) of the Turks described out and it was on there.

[rivitir]

Just to add to what Tinker said, I know from my searching on Mosin's the american made ones actually where changed over and chambered for 30-06. As far as I know they are kinda rare but that should at least tell you about how strong the Mosin action is.

 

Here is a Wikipedia entry on it, look under the United States section:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mosin-Nagant

 

As far as your Turk you should be able to do just about anything you want with it. The only thing that concerns me is the amount of rust you said you have on the barrel. Is their excessive rust on the action? If so that may cause you problems and it wouldn't hurt to have it checked out by a good gun smith. On the same note many of the guys on here may be able to tell you just by looking at some good pictures of it.

 

Thanks for the site. Has some good info on it.

 

Hey 8uck, got an idea for your wildcat round. How about a .357x39?

[8uck5nort]

.357x39 is exaclty what I was thinking.

 

Call it the .357 Hoosier. Hey that doesn't sound too bad...

 

Should be able to use Lee dies to neck out the 7.62x39 case and ready made .357 bullets. Just need to get a .38 barrel blank and get the chamber made. I will have a 98 mauser action coming available shortly that should be a good candidate for just such an experiment. mwhahahaha....

[sonic1]

found this on gb http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=163749302

[tinkerfive]

found this on gb http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=163749302

 

I think that Gunparts has the same barrel for less.

 

T

[rivitir]

.357x39 is exaclty what I was thinking.

 

Call it the .357 Hoosier. Hey that doesn't sound too bad...

 

Should be able to use Lee dies to neck out the 7.62x39 case and ready made .357 bullets. Just need to get a .38 barrel blank and get the chamber made. I will have a 98 mauser action coming available shortly that should be a good candidate for just such an experiment. mwhahahaha....

 

Steal some of the .357 bullets I sold to your cousin. From the sound of things he isn't using them, and they performed really well for me.

 

.357 Hoosier... I like the sound of it.

[indyeyedoc]

TinkerFive - I'm sure your correct. I don't know the first thing about Mosin action strength and was just mindlessly repeating what I read on a forum somewhere, apparently info also posted by someone who doesn't know about Mosin action strength. As far as the .308 being the converted cartridge, it doesn't fit the story timeline wise. I know PO Ackley strength tested some actions...Did he test the Mosin?

 

8uck5snort - Your .35X39 wildcat already exists! Its called a 35 Gremlin, matches 35 Remington stats (180 gr bullet @2325 fps) and barrels and dies are readily available. Maybe brass too... Have you thought of shortening and necking up the 7.62X54 for use in the Mosin? Also look at the .357 Herret (case trimmed) for your Carcano action... guys are getting the same velocities with it as they are with the 358 Gremlin. Please post some pictures of your work. I think for my Turk I'm going to go with a shortened .358 Winchester case. Should be good for 180gr at 2300 -2400 fps. Hopefully I'll be able to just trim a set of dies and rechamber a 35 Remington Shilen small ring barrel. A dummy round I made feeds well and I won't have to mess with the bolt face.

 

rivitir, Dr. Hess, thanks for your input I appreciate it

[sonic1]

a link for the 35 gremlin....

http://www.bfgcartridges.com/

[8uck5nort]

Yes, but I'm a distant relative of Al Gore and I want to say "I invented it"!!!!!

 

Ok, it was fun to do the mental excersize of getting there. It looks like using the 7.2x39 brass is the easiest way to go instead of the 6.5 grendel. Did some more reading on the links that are posted and some further research elsewhere.

 

Let's see I just pulled the barrel off another beat up Spanish mauser to harvest the action. It will not win any beauty contests but it will work. Got some real pitting in the non vital areas, but I plan on sandblasitng, parking and then Duracoating in a matte color.

 

What I need is 150.00 bucks for the dies. I found a 1 inch OD .38 cal blank at Numrich for about 80.00 bucks, or I can pick up another one of the 27.00 dollar ones that are pre chambered in .357 and perhaps use the junk barrle to harvest the threads and sleeve into the existing LR barrel. still need it re-chambered though...

 

I also just picked up a black cherry fireplace mantle that I can whittle a stock or two... Seems like I got another one coming together, but it is gonna take some time to get to this one.

 

I'll get pics posted soon of the carcano porjects as well as some of the other ones I have been working on.

[Kenpo Joe]

Would a Turk be safe enough for a 8x68S? I have one with a very good barrel and I would like to rechamber it to something else. I seem to remember reading somewhere and sometime that the barrel thickness for the chamber would be too thin to support the pressure.

 

The 8-06 is an option if not. Not to say that there are any fly's on the original caliber.

 

Back on mute.

[tinkerfive]

Would a Turk be safe enough for a 8x68S? I have one with a very good barrel and I would like to rechamber it to something else. I seem to remember reading somewhere and sometime that the barrel thickness for the chamber would be too thin to support the pressure.

 

The 8-06 is an option if not. Not to say that there are any fly's on the original caliber.

 

Back on mute.

 

I've heard that Z1r has been building 9X68's on other 98 actions so I presume that an 8X68 can be done.

8-06 ( 8X63 ) would be easier. The action was designed for 8X57 so you have do do at least some work to

get the 8-06 to work. 8X68 is 11MM longer than the original chambering Vs 6MM longer of the 8-06.

Reaming out a 7X57 military barrel to 8-06 (8X63) has generally been considered safe in that I've not heard anyone speak out against that practice. Now reaming out an 8X57 barrel to 8X68 is something that I've

just not heard of anyone else doing before. Just check to see what the wall thickness is near the shoulder

if it were to be deepened by 11MM. Prior discussions have set .25" as a safe wall thickness to be

maintained.

 

This is where I feel uncomfortable with a magnum on a Turk that has .98 OD barrel threads.

The minor diameter is .88. Now most magnum case diameters are near .5 + (2X.25 wall thickness)= 1".

So 1-.88= .12 which means that the wall thickness is .06" shy. Now some will tell you that what I

just presented doesn't count because the barrel threads are backed up by the receiver threads.

It's your hands and face, you decide how much solid metal you feel safe with between you and a 60,000PSI

explosion.

 

Oh! and that 29" barrel would be great to burn all that extra powder in. With the right loading I'd

think that you'd be approaching similar velocities from an 8-06 as a magnum with a 24" barrel.

 

Best of luck with your project. Keep us informed.

One day I've got my own 8-06 Turk to do.

Tinker

[Sailormilan2]

The 8x63 Swede is a bit bigger around than a 30-06 case too. Holds somewhere around 75 gr of water, which is more than a 30-06 Ackley Improved.

 

8x63 Swede.. rim dia.... .479", base dia.... .488", shoulder dia.... .456", case length.... 2.48", COL... 3.36"

8x57 Mauser. rim dia.... .473", base dia.... .470", shoulder dia.... .443", case length.... 2.24", COL... 3.17/3.25"

30-06....... rim dia.... .473", base dia.... .470', shoulder dia.... .441", case length.... 2.54", COL... 3.34"

8x68 RWS.... rim dia.... .510", base dia.... .522", shoulder dia.... .473", case length.... 2.65", COL... 3.38"

[Kenpo Joe]

I've heard that Z1r has been building 9X68's on other 98 actions so I presume that an 8X68 can be done.

8-06 ( 8X63 ) would be easier. The action was designed for 8X57 so you have do do at least some work to

get the 8-06 to work. 8X68 is 11MM longer than the original chambering Vs 6MM longer of the 8-06.

Reaming out a 7X57 military barrel to 8-06 (8X63) has generally been considered safe in that I've not heard anyone speak out against that practice. Now reaming out an 8X57 barrel to 8X68 is something that I've

just not heard of anyone else doing before. Just check to see what the wall thickness is near the shoulder

if it were to be deepened by 11MM. Prior discussions have set .25" as a safe wall thickness to be

maintained.

 

This is where I feel uncomfortable with a magnum on a Turk that has .98 OD barrel threads.

The minor diameter is .88. Now most magnum case diameters are near .5 + (2X.25 wall thickness)= 1".

So 1-.88= .12 which means that the wall thickness is .06" shy. Now some will tell you that what I

just presented doesn't count because the barrel threads are backed up by the receiver threads.

It's your hands and face, you decide how much solid metal you feel safe with between you and a 60,000PSI

explosion.

 

Oh! and that 29" barrel would be great to burn all that extra powder in. With the right loading I'd

think that you'd be approaching similar velocities from an 8-06 as a magnum with a 24" barrel.

 

Best of luck with your project. Keep us informed.

One day I've got my own 8-06 Turk to do.

Tinker

 

I have no interest in re-arranging my face and I agree that the barrel may be too thin at the receiver. I think I'll start looking at the 8mm-06 or the AI version of that chambering. The 8x63 Swede is interesting. Sailormilan - did you ever look at the 9.3x62 case for resizing to the Swede? Its dimensions are closer than the 30-06 to the Swede. rim dia.... .470", base dia.... .476", shoulder dia.... .451", case length.... 2.441". The case is a little short, but it may grow when it is necked down to 8mm.

 

I cut the barrel down to 26in and recrowned it. I bought new FN commercial bottom metal and I have a new laminated stock fitted. I still need to glass bed the stock and then I'll use Tung oil for the finish.

 

I plan to shoot it in the original chambering just in case its a real good shooter. If not, then I may change it to 8mm-6. (I once bought a Winchester M70 in 338 WinMag because I was planning on rebarreling it to 358 Norma Mag. I took it to the range first and it put 5 250gr inside of 1". I didn't want to mess around with something that shot this good, so it is still a 338WM and I am looking for another action that I could convert to the Norma.)