Barrel Length

[Kyle]

I'm building a Gew 88 sporter right now and I need some help decided what length the barrel should be. I intend for this rifle to be a light weight, fast handling brush gun that still packs a pretty big punch. I'm using the original barrel in 8x57 which I've now cut down to 20in. I plan to use moderate loads (because of the old action) with heavy bullets and most shots will probably be within 100 yards. I plan to mount either a red dot or an LER scope on it with low or no magnification.

 

I've shortened and lightened the original stock and I've decided not to add a pistol grip or cheek piece to make it handle faster when hunting in thick brush. Right now the barrel is at 20in but I'm wondering if I should shorten it further still. In MN I can go as short as 16 inches. After I learned that barrel length doesn't necessarily have anything to do with accuracy and will only slightly lower muzzle velocity I'm thinking it might be better to shorten it further to make it slightly shorter and faster handling as well as making it a little lighter. I can't really see any negatives to having it at the minimum length other then perhaps added muzzle blast and recoil which will be non-issues for me (I'll be adding a rubber recoil pad and I don't mind muzzle blast) but their must be some reason why nobody builds their brush guns with that short a barrel so I figured I'd ask.

 

Please give me your opinion on this.

[z1r]

I'd stick with 20" as the rifle will tend to balance better and muzzle blast will be lessened.

[Horsefly]

I wouldn't go any shorter than 20'' either.Any shorter and it's going to look funny and feel stubby.I have a '96 Swede in a Choate stock with a 20'' barrel and it's the lightest and easiest to carry rifle I own.If you cut an 8MM down to 16'',the muzzle blast and the dudes at the shooting range will wear you out.I have a Remington 600 in 308 with an 18'' barrel,and it's no fun to shoot at all,but handy for stand hunting we do here in Tejas where you run the gun out a window for a shot.20'' is my minimum length.I once had a Chilean 7x57 carbine with about a 17 1/2'' barrel,and man would that sucker roar and light up the evening with muzzle blast.Jerry

[Kyle]

I think I may compromise and go with an 18in barrel. I plan on building another sporter in the same caliber with a 22-24in barrel and I think having one at 20in would be sort of redundant. I think it will be pretty well balanced with an 18in barrel as the stock is also really short (it was already a poorly sportered milsurp stock so I had to shorten it further). I think an 18in barrel would make a handy little rifle for hunting from a tree stand or in thick brush which is hard to maneuver threw especially with a long barrel and for quick shots when you kick up a deer. If nothing else I think it would be fun to shoot with all the cheap 8mm surplus ammo available and the tough kick and big fireball would impress my friends!

 

What do you guys think, I know you don't recommend under 20in barrel but would 18in be ok in your opinion?

 

 

[Vladymere]

Barrel length is designated not only by handeling, muzzle blast and recoil but also by esthetics.

 

How does the rifle look asslembled with barrel length as is? Block off 2" at the muzzle and look at it the rifle. How does it look with the shorter barrel?

 

Building a sporter is not purely about function but also about appearance. The sporterized rifle is an art object. We don't all have the same taste in art. You will have to decide what looks good to you and blend the appearance with function.

 

I will say that, generaly, if going with a 16" to 18" barrel then you need either a Mannlicher style stock or a very diminutive stock to achieve a pleasing apearance.

 

Just my two cents.

 

Vlad

 

[carzngunz]

I've got a Turk Mauser with a Rem. 700 243 barrel that I cut to 18". It shoots and handles well, but it's not an 8mm either. By the way I am also starting a twin project to this one in 308, also 18". I wouldn't want all my barrels that short but it sure makes a handy rifle.

[Kyle]

That is one of the reasons why I wanted another 2" taken off. The stock is so short that it is probably only about 10in past the end of the magazine leaving enough wood to easily grip the rifle but it doesn't go nearly as far as the wood on most sporters with 22-24in barrels. I think it would actually look more proportional with an 18in barrel then with a 20in barrel.

[z1r]

Proportion is relative. Todays's stocks tend to have fore ends that are 11"-13" long while stocks of yesteryear had 8" to 10" fore ends.

 

Most mannlichers had 19.5" barrels.

 

To borrow from what Vlad said, custom gun building is blending aesthics with practical real world considerations like function, which includes balance, handling, pointability, accuracy, ETC.

[Doble Troble]

I completely agree with the asthetics points above. I'll also add a practical point.

 

I've got two Moisin Nagants. One is a 91/30 with a long barrel, probably 30". The other is an M38 that I dearly love with something like a 20" barrel which on this rifle seems REALLY short.

 

The most accurate load that I've come up with for both of these rifles is a 150 gr Hornady FBSP over 53 gr of AA4350. The little carbine shoots these so well that its rare that holes don't touch other holes at 100 yds. But that little carbine breathes FIRE. Big, billowing FIREBALLS. It also kicks like an onery mule.

 

I suppose I could try to work-up a less hairy load for it, but this one is so good that I haven't gotten around to it. If I'd shorten the barrel to 18" I bet I'd have to.

 

Of course the other issue is velocity. I've chronoed the same load out of both rifles. The long barrel does ~ 2800 fps, the 20" does 2550.

 

My other short barrel story is my FR8 Mauser in 7.62 x 51 NATO. It has something like an 18" barrel, and I dearly love carrying it around too. I can't tell you how much time I spent trying to work up load with it. 4895, RL15, 4350.... Nothing was accurate and EVERYTHING fireballed. I finally tried 4198. No fireball and excellent accuracy. The downside is that my most accurate load with the 150 gr Hornady bullets described above do a hair under 2400 fps.

 

If you want a highpowered rifle I think you must go with at least a 20" barrel. I'd recommend a minimum of 22". If you want a fast handling carbine with 18" barrel, get yourself a Win 94 in 30-30, no one has invented anything better.

[Kyle]

I completely agree with the asthetics points above. I'll also add a practical point.

 

I've got two Moisin Nagants. One is a 91/30 with a long barrel, probably 30". The other is an M38 that I dearly love with something like a 20" barrel which on this rifle seems REALLY short.

 

The most accurate load that I've come up with for both of these rifles is a 150 gr Hornady FBSP over 53 gr of AA4350. The little carbine shoots these so well that its rare that holes don't touch other holes at 100 yds. But that little carbine breathes FIRE. Big, billowing FIREBALLS. It also kicks like an onery mule.

 

I suppose I could try to work-up a less hairy load for it, but this one is so good that I haven't gotten around to it. If I'd shorten the barrel to 18" I bet I'd have to.

 

Of course the other issue is velocity. I've chronoed the same load out of both rifles. The long barrel does ~ 2800 fps, the 20" does 2550.

 

My other short barrel story is my FR8 Mauser in 7.62 x 51 NATO. It has something like an 18" barrel, and I dearly love carrying it around too. I can't tell you how much time I spent trying to work up load with it. 4895, RL15, 4350.... Nothing was accurate and EVERYTHING fireballed. I finally tried 4198. No fireball and excellent accuracy. The downside is that my most accurate load with the 150 gr Hornady bullets described above do a hair under 2400 fps.

 

If you want a highpowered rifle I think you must go with at least a 20" barrel. I'd recommend a minimum of 22". If you want a fast handling carbine with 18" barrel, get yourself a Win 94 in 30-30.

 

The reason I figure this rifle would be a good choice for a short barrel is because I would not be able to take full advantage of a longer barrel. This is a very old action (built in 1890) and higher end loads for 8mm Mauser are quite a bit higher then the maximum recommended loads for this action. I plan on using fairly moderate loads with a heavy bullet (maybe 200 grain?). Since this rifle will be used to hunt in thick woods where only relatively close shots are needed I think this gun would perform excellently with an 18in barrel since a slightly lower muzzle velocity and a little less accuracy probably won't be a factor at those ranges. With light and moderate loads recoil and muzzle blast won't be as big an issue and and a large bullet (even if it isn't moving all that fast) will be more then powerful enough at those ranges for whitetail deer and black bear.

[Doble Troble]

OK, that all sounds very reasonable. You will have to work up your own loads with faster powders (careful!).

 

Have you tried Vlad's suggestion? Do you think further shortening will look and feel OK? Maybe a reasonable approach would be to try it a 20" and if it doesn't work out you can go to 18" later (its easier to take off bbl length than to add it).

 

A big part of the fun is grappling with these questions. Thanks for sharing!

[riceone]

Here are several rifles, the bottom one has a 16" barrel, the one above is 20" and the one above that is 18". I agree, esthetics is what to look in shortening a barrel if nothing else matters. riceone.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v283/riceone/DSC00084.jpg[/url]

[usmc0332]

Check this out. http://www.ruger-firearms.com/Firearms/FAP...=17881&return=Y . A magazine recently did a story about short barreled rifles. It had this Ruger Frontier on the cover. It may have been G&A. The article talked about how handy a carbine is and its usefulness. There was some velocity loss but they had good handling qualities and good accuracy. I personally like short rifles, even if my M38 M-N rings my ears when I shoot at game. My Turk has a 21" barrel and I like its length and looks. Decisions decisions. Good luck and enjoy your project.