ken98k Posted December 16, 2007 Report Share Posted December 16, 2007 I am working on a M-98 that does not cock when the bolt handle is lifted then closed. I have to pull it back slightly for the sear to engage. I've heard differing opinions about grinding, stoning or filing the engaging surface on the cocking piece. Any suggestions would be welcome. Kenny Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron J Posted December 16, 2007 Report Share Posted December 16, 2007 Kenny, I only own one 98, a Turk. It cocks itself while on the upswing of the handle and stays cocked without pulling it back at all. However, I noticed yesterday with a cock-on-close Swede that they don't cock just by opening and closing. I don't think my Rem 30S does either. They have to be brought back some, then they cock while pushing the bolt fully forward. This probably isn't anything you don't already know, I'm just wondering if theres some switched pcs from another action in there or something. Or maybe someone ground the wrong surface already. Someone here will know - this should turn into an interesting thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
donmarkey Posted December 16, 2007 Report Share Posted December 16, 2007 How is the root of the bolt handle? You know that little bevel. Has it been modified. The root should engage the cocking cam on the receiver to pull the bolt back the needed amount. Try the bolt in a different receiver to see if it's the bolt or receiver before checking sear placement. If the CP has been messed with I'd replace it first. If you need one PM me your address I just got a load of 1909 cocking pieces in. -Don Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ken98k Posted December 16, 2007 Author Report Share Posted December 16, 2007 How is the root of the bolt handle? You know that little bevel. Has it been modified. The root should engage the cocking cam on the receiver to pull the bolt back the needed amount. -Don Thanks all. I checked several other rifles and it appears I need to build up and reshape the forward surface of the bolt handle root. I was thinking that the cocking cam on the rear of the bolt would do the job by itself Kenny Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BobVZ Posted December 17, 2007 Report Share Posted December 17, 2007 If I understand the question, the problem is that the action is not cocking when the bolt is lifted and then lowered. This is caused by the cocking piece not clearing the sear. This can be due to a worn cocking piece cam or the cocking piece and the sear in too tight engagement. If the cam is worn you need to get a new cocking piece. If its just a slight amount that you have to pull back on the cocking piece to set it, you might be able to stone a little metal off the engagement surfaces of the sear and the cocking piece to provide clearance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BradD Posted December 18, 2007 Report Share Posted December 18, 2007 Kenny, this is hard without seeing it, but... The bevel on the left front corner on the foreward side of the bolt root provides leverage for extraction when it engages the cam on the rear of the receiver. It pushes the bolt back as you lift it, compounding the extraction force. It isn't really involved in cocking the the gun. When you lift the handle on a 98, the cocking piece engagement ramp engages the cam on the back of the bolt. The cam lifts the engagement ramp all the way up and over the cam and it rests on the back of the bolt. This should occur when the bolt root is straight up, regardless of anything else. It stays there until the bolt is moved forward at which time the sear on the cocking piece engages the trigger sear. When the bolt handle is down, the gun is cocked. A couple things could cause the engagement tip on the cp not to completely roll up over the cocking cam on the bolt and land in it's proper place. In all probability the result of a person not knowing what they were doing monkeying with it. Check the cocking ramp cam surface on the bolt, has someone ground it or filed it back so far that it does not lift the cp enough to roll over into cocked? Check the cocking piece, has someone ground or filed the engagement surface so that they made a point instead of a flat on the tip. Look at the sears on both the cocking piece and the trigger, have they been filed on, or replaced and not properly fitted for engagement as Bob described? And, if the the forward tip of the cp has been filed down some, the cp may be just sitting too far forward to catch the trigger sear on the handle lift without pulling the bolt back slightly. I tend to throw in with Don and Bob on this one. Suspect the cp. If you have any laying around or another 98 you can borrow from, it's a lot easier to just start trying different parts and see if one fixes it. Good luck. Keep us informed. Brad Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ken98k Posted December 18, 2007 Author Report Share Posted December 18, 2007 "The bevel on the left front corner on the foreward side of the bolt root provides leverage for extraction when it engages the cam on the rear of the receiver. It pushes the bolt back as you lift it, compounding the extraction force. It isn't really involved in cocking the the gun." That's what I thought, but- I tried several different cocking peices tonight and a diffierent trigger, still no luck. I tried this bolt bolt assembly in several (10) different rifles, worked in a couple but not in most. I tried several bolts in this receiver, all worked The only thing that's different about this action is the bolt handle has been replaced. When closed the gap between the rear edge of the receiver and front of the bolt handle root is about double compared to other mausers. My next step will be to build up the forward edge of the bolt handle root and then clean it up so it's about 1/32" larger. Kenny Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
donmarkey Posted December 18, 2007 Report Share Posted December 18, 2007 Shim it out with a peice of shim stock to the original dimension and try it first. -Don Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
z1r Posted December 19, 2007 Report Share Posted December 19, 2007 I don't normally like to add to trigger discussions but, I'll say this, go ahead and weld on the material required to restore the root. Because even if it doesn't solve your current problem it will prevent extraction problems as well as a couple of other potentials.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BradD Posted December 19, 2007 Report Share Posted December 19, 2007 Kenny, Try Don's suggestion first, then do what you think is best anyway. My hunch is you'll find it doesn't affect the problem, but better safe than sorry. Mike does have a point here in the extraction, but that is down the road. I see that the trigger has been replaced. Is it a Bold? When you do that you change the relationship between trigger sear and cp sear and adjustments are occassionally needed. The usual one is filing back the engagement face of the cp sear far enough where it will clear the trigger sear and the trigger sear can then pop up and engage the cp sear. Hang in there, buddy. We know you'll figger it and it will interesting to hear. Brad Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ken98k Posted December 20, 2007 Author Report Share Posted December 20, 2007 Another reason I feel I need to restore the handle root is, I found that if I lift the handle while holding forward pressure on it it will cock when I insert the tip of a razor knife. The trigger is a Dayton Traister. However I''ve also tried the original trigger with same results. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BobVZ Posted December 21, 2007 Report Share Posted December 21, 2007 Kenak2, After mentally manipulating your predicament I find myself agreeing with you on the bolt root issue. Apparently what you need is that last few thou kick you get from the bolt root cam hitting the rear bridge. I realized this moves the entire assembly back and allows the sear to snap in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BradD Posted December 21, 2007 Report Share Posted December 21, 2007 Let us know, Kenny. I'm already looking around for the best looking crow to eat. Brad Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ken98k Posted December 22, 2007 Author Report Share Posted December 22, 2007 I never got the chance to get the welding done this week and I don't have a tig of my own. The guy who has tig'd the last couple bolts for me is closed until wednesday, and I've sworn off O/A welding bolts. Now I've got 4 days off (if I don't get called out) to stare at it. Mabey next week. Kenny Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
z1r Posted December 22, 2007 Report Share Posted December 22, 2007 Don't stare too hard, it may start doing weird things. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bilurey Posted December 24, 2007 Report Share Posted December 24, 2007 Did I notice a "Tally" type 3 position safety as well as a Dayton Traistor trigger? The safety may have caused your problem by being improperly altered when this fine safety was added. Try replacing just the bolt shroud and cocking piece. The right side of the face of the cocking piece barrel must be rounded back somewhat to allow the Tally's safety lever to cam the cocking piece back away from the rear face of the cocking piece. This requires quite a bit of skill, Tally safetys are great but should be fitted by a professional. Not the problem? Leave the substitute parts from above test alteration and replace the trigger with a military. Both the Bold and the Timney sears are designed to move further back in the unit when pressure is taken off them. If the fit of the D/T Trigger and the Tally safety really critical Not the problem? Some well intentioned soul may have ground back the rear face of the bolt, thus, not permitting the foot of the front face of the cocking piece to be withdrawn sufficiently to completely disengage from the sear so that it can be cocked. The wedged knife blade has the effect of increasing the distance of the entire bolt rearward, thus permitting the face of the cocking piece front face to clear the rear face of the sear and allowing them to re-engage in the cocked position. You may have two variables causing the problem. In this case it's usually easier to draw up a Probability Box listing unaltered military parts (cocking piece, shroud, safety, bolt body) across the top of the box, and altered replacment parts down the side of the box so that every possible combination is shown. It's almost impossible to keep all these possibilities in your head while working on them one at a time. Or with head hung low, carrying a cigar box full of loose parts, slink into your local gunsmith's shop at dawn or dusk and swallowing your pride ask that awful question, "Can you fix this for me?". Good Luck, Bill. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ken98k Posted January 4, 2008 Author Report Share Posted January 4, 2008 I got the forward edge of the bolt built up and that solved the problem. However- my welder didn't do such a great job this time. Missed spots and holes. Will need more build up so I can smooth things out. I really wish I had my own tig machine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BradD Posted January 6, 2008 Report Share Posted January 6, 2008 Ptooey, ptoooey. Ahem, excuse me, I was just spitting out crow feathers. They taste like crap (I guess). Kenny, thanks for the info and the project. I see why Mike doesn't touch these things now. I must put this one back in the file of odd info for odd problems. Brad Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
donmarkey Posted January 8, 2008 Report Share Posted January 8, 2008 Ptooey, ptoooey. Ahem, excuse me, I was just spitting out crow feathers. They taste like crap (I guess). Kenny, thanks for the info and the project. I see why Mike doesn't touch these things now. I must put this one back in the file of odd info for odd problems. Brad Brad, the only reason I suggested that is I've ran into the same problem. -Don Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BradD Posted January 9, 2008 Report Share Posted January 9, 2008 Eating crow? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ken98k Posted January 9, 2008 Author Report Share Posted January 9, 2008 Ptooey, ptoooey. Ahem, excuse me, I was just spitting out crow feathers. They taste like crap (I guess). Kenny, thanks for the info and the project. I see why Mike doesn't touch these things now. I must put this one back in the file of odd info for odd problems. Brad Don't eat too much of that crow, I was just as surprised as anyone. But after all the parts combinations I tried the bolt root was the only possibility left. (See post #7 of this thead) Kenny Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
z1r Posted January 9, 2008 Report Share Posted January 9, 2008 Glad you got things straightened out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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