Turk Mauser Barrel Short Chambered?

[diggerdanh]

Got one for you gents.

 

My latest build is a pretty simple project - a Turk 1954 ATF rifle (german-built originally) - got it from AIM several years ago with a few other Turks back when they were $39.99. D&T'd, Redfield one-peice base and rings, Bueler-type safety, Timney trigger, forged bolt, decent slim Walnut stock. The barrel looks great inside and out so I decided to keep the original chambering and just cut down the barrel to 24 inches. My inspiration is 50's/60's style sporter.

 

I thought I had hit the home stretch and hoped to finish the build this weekend (everything except the stock finishing). I had a little bit of bedding work to finish up around the trigger guard to fix my overzealous dremelling during inletting and I wanted to apply duracoat to the receiver and barrel this weekend.

 

I tightened the barrel onto the receiver before getting ready to prep for Duracoat. I thought I'd go ahead and measure the headspace and that it would be nothing more than simply checking another box off of my to-do list.

 

I put the go guage in but the bolt would only drop about 2/3rds of the way. I had the extractor on the bold so after saying "Your're a dummy" to myself I removed it and tried again. Same result. I'm not using the original bolt, which was non-matching anyway, so I fished the original bolt out of my box of parts and tried that to with the same result. I later checked another bolt and same results.

 

First thing that came to mind was advice I'd read on this forum several times - "Thoroughly clean the chamber, you might have some shavings or something in there interfering." I cleaned it a bit this afternoon with a soft wire brush and some bore cleaner. When I tested I still found the same thing - bold wouldn't rotate down all the way.

 

I did not check the headspace on the rifle in its original configuration because I didn't have 8mm gauges until a week or so ago so I don't know if that is how it was when I got it. Lesson Learned #1. But I didn't make any changes to the barrel face or receiver in those areas - other than cleaning threads with a toothbrush.

 

I haven't taken another look inside the chamber to make sure there still isn't something in there, that is my next step. But I thought I'd throw this out there while it was still on my mind.

 

Has anyone ever come across a "stock" military Turk Mauser, or any other for that matter, with what appears to be a short chambered barrel?

 

I'm contemplating either finishing the build and performing the finish reaming later or pulling the stock barrel from a VZ24 (that is destined for a Parker Hale .308 heavy barrel) and using that one instead if it looks good.

[tinkerfive]

I tightened the barrel onto the receiver before getting ready to prep for Duracoat. I thought I'd go ahead and measure the headspace and that it would be nothing more than simply checking another box off of my to-do list.

 

I put the go guage in but the bolt would only drop about 2/3rds of the way.

 

Since you D&T for a scope mount did you remove the sights from the barrel?

What I'm wondering is if you tightened it more than what it was originally.

If you still have the sights on the barrel I assume that you stoped when they hit 12:00; and I'm clueless for an explanation.

If you took the sights off may you have tightened the barrel more than it was originally?

You have a "Turked" gun rather than a Turk gun so I'm not sure but usually there will be a 'witness' mark at either 12:00 or 6:00

where the barrel and receiver meet.

Long story short, the only explanation I can think of is that the barrel is now screwed on further than when you got it.

 

Be sure to let us know when you figure out the answer.

 

Tinker

[z1r]

Since you D&T for a scope mount did you remove the sights from the barrel?

What I'm wondering is if you tightened it more than what it was originally.

If you still have the sights on the barrel I assume that you stoped when they hit 12:00; and I'm clueless for an explanation.

If you took the sights off may you have tightened the barrel more than it was originally?

You have a "Turked" gun rather than a Turk gun so I'm not sure but usually there will be a 'witness' mark at either 12:00 or 6:00

where the barrel and receiver meet.

Long story short, the only explanation I can think of is that the barrel is now screwed on further than when you got it.

 

Be sure to let us know when you figure out the answer.

 

Tinker

 

 

If the gage only goes 2/3rds of the way in, then it is not simply an over tightened barrel.

 

I have a had a couple of Milsurps that had short chambers but I am talking .001's of an inch not 10ths.

 

Any chance there was a spacer between the barrel & receiver face?

 

Did you face off the receiver?

[diggerdanh]

tinkerfive,

 

Thanks for the reply. Yes, I did remove the rear sight. I looked for "witness marks" yesterday but I didn't see any. Lesson Learned #2 - put a witness mark in place, if nothing else but for my own sanity.

 

I doubt that I have it on any tighter than it was originally because it was really torqued on there good - real good. And when I put it on I just screwed it to tight and then a "grunt" for a little more.

 

But the hole for the rear sight base should still be in place - I just used some epoxy to fill it since I knew I would be using a spray on coating. I pulled the barrel back off to clean and check the chamber so I can't provide a definitive answer now, but that's one thing I will check tomorrow. I'll see where that lines up.

 

Now that I think about it - I noticed that there was a lot of junk in the threads and the mating surface between the barrel and receiver when I originally pulled the barrel. I just contributed it to age and "funk". But I wonder if the Turk armorers left shavings or something in there that stopped the barrel from being completely screwed on. Especially considering how they mill the front of the receiver to create the lip - that could create a lot of junk like that. And another thing I just remembered - there is one spot on the barrel face that is marred a little bit. I remember thinking that it looked like it might have been created by a shaving or something between the barrel and the receiver face. I never imagined that it would add any "artificial" headspace, but I guess if it was big enough it could. Interesting. So it could be that I have it screwed on farther than it was originally, though it is definitely torqued a lot less than it was.

 

Well, I'll inspect and clean the chamber a bit more tomorrow. Hopefully I'll just find some shavings or something there and get it cleaned out. But either way I'll look for the rear sight hole and see how that lines up now and I'll update.

 

Thanks again.

 

[diggerdanh]

If the gage only goes 2/3rds of the way in, then it is not simply an over tightened barrel.

 

I have a had a couple of Milsurps that had short chambers but I am talking .001's of an inch not 10ths.

 

Any chance there was a spacer between the barrel & receiver face?

 

Did you face off the receiver?

 

 

Sorry for any confusion. The gage appears to go all the way in - I should be able to measure it roughly to let you know how much of the gage is sticking out. It was the bolt handle that only went down 2/3rds of the way.

 

I didn't face the receiver - the only thing I did was take a soft toothbrush to it to clean out the gunk to both it and the barrel face.

 

I don't think there was a spacer, but you can see from my previous post that I'm second guessing that there might have been some junk there. I didn't see a spacer or anything when I pulled it, but I guess something could have fallen off and went under my bench and I didn't see it.

 

Truthfully, the first thing that I thought was that the Go guage must be marked wrong. Actually, that is something I can test tomorrow, too. See how much of the Go guage protrudes compared to the NoGo guage to make sure that it is indeed shorter.

 

Well, I'll get at it again fresh tomorrow and let you know what I find. Thanks for the tips.

 

[8uck5nort]

I know I'm the newbie, and I have yet to headspace chack anything, but here is the first thing that came to my mind.

 

When I was looking at Forester 8mm head space guages they said on there website that there are two different kinds based on a pre 1940's shoulder angle which I bleieve was supposed to be 19 degrees and then a post 1940's shoulder angle of 20 degrees. Could that have somehting to do with it? They said if you had a late model guage with a early model muaser you could possibly get incorrect readings. With the Turks being part built at the armory who knows? I am also not sure what type of guages you are using?

[ken98k]

I would do a chamber cast before proceeding any farther.

It may not even be a 8x57.

[diggerdanh]

8uck5nort, I hadn't heard that before about different shoulder angles. And you're right, I have no idea of the date or origin of the receiver or barrel. I spent a few hours looking up the stamps on the bottom of the receiver but that really didn't get me anywhere.

 

ken98k - That is what I was thinking, too. On a hunch I dropped in a .308 go gage, but the chamber completely swallows it. I can't imagine it being anything other than 8x57 since it was stock military configuration and bought directly from AIM when they still had a bunch of Turk Mausers. But, better safe than sorry, I'll order some cerrosafe and get a chamber cast.

 

I checked my 8x57 GO gage vs. the NO GO gage and it looks to be correct.

 

I tightened up the barrel again and checked the alignment of the rear sight hole and it looks like it is still top dead center. I can look right down the line through my newly tapped holes in the top of the receiver and the rear sight hole falls right in line. Of course it could be off a degree or two, but it looks good by eyeballing it.

 

I checked the chamber with a light and saw nothing out of the ordinary and even scrubbed it with a chamber brush for several minutes just for kicks. Still nothing.

 

I'm really perplexed and can kick myself for not measuring the headspace before I tore it apart. But I'm really glad I never took this thing straight to the range after buying it to fire it without checking. I'll never fire a surplus rifle again without checking headspace first.

 

I'm going to do a chamber cast and then if it is 8x57 and just short chambered then I'll just set it aside until the next time I rent a reamer.

 

Thanks again gents.

[diggerdanh]

When I was looking at Forester 8mm head space guages they said on there website that there are two different kinds based on a pre 1940's shoulder angle which I bleieve was supposed to be 19 degrees and then a post 1940's shoulder angle of 20 degrees. Could that have somehting to do with it? They said if you had a late model guage with a early model muaser you could possibly get incorrect readings. With the Turks being part built at the armory who knows? I am also not sure what type of guages you are using?

 

8uck5nort may be on to something. This is the text from the Forster site, emphasis mine:

 

Background

SAAMI’s current Chamber and Cartridge drawing (ANSI standard) shows a 19° shoulder angle in the chamber. The earliest revision of this print showing 19° is dated April 21, 1980.

 

The shoulder angle in the 8 x 57 Mauser, however, hasn’t always been 19°.

 

A SAAMI/Winchester Repeating Arms print, New Haven, CT, dated November 12, 1938, shows a 20° 48’ shoulder angle. The last revision made on this 20° 48’ angle print is dated July 9, 1947.

 

It appears that the transition from the older 20° 48’ shoulder angle to the current 19° shoulder angle did not happen suddenly. Discussions with gunsmiths and collectors indicate that there may have been a 15 to 30 year period during which firearm chambers were manufactured to both shoulder angles.

 

Measurement and Gaging Implications

Headspace gages that are made to the current 19° shoulder angle will not properly check older 20° 48’ shoulder angle firearms. Because of the shoulder angle difference, a 19° gage does not match to the datum measurement point of firearms that are chambered to 20° 48’. A 19° headspace gage will appear as if it were longer because the 19° shoulder angle will contact the bore of the chamber before it contacts the chamber’s datum point.

 

Anyone ever heard of this or run into this before? I've never heard of this before, but then I never stick to 8x57 either . That sounds like what I'm seeing. My go gage is hitting the bore and not the shoulder - I can see a little "dirt" ring when I pull it out that shows where it hits the bore just above the shoulder (actually well above the shoulder - about 1/4" from the top of the gage).

 

I guess I'll have to order a set of the older gages and see what that does for me.

[Clemson]

Will the bolt close OK on live rounds? (For goodness sake test this in a safe place!)

 

Clemson

[odies dad]

I have a yugo model 24 that fires just fine but won't close on a Go gauge.

[diggerdanh]

Will the bolt close OK on live rounds? (For goodness sake test this in a safe place!)

 

Clemson

 

 

Clemson, funny - I was just thinking the same thing myself this afternoon. That will be the next thing I check.

 

Odies Dad, great news. Thanks for the confirmation. And don't worry I won't take that as legal advice

 

 

[Spiris]

I don't know why you're having problems with your gauge, but it appears that you have one of the late conversion models that have a large ring barrel and a shortened large ring action. The Turks modified the large ring German actions by cutting a hand guard lip and that shortened the usable threads in the action and the barrel needed to have the threads shortened too. It's possible that the rifle has an issue because of the conversion.

The K.Kale models and previous 98 versions had LR action with SR barrel threads.

 

Maybe you already know this, but I thought that I would mention it.

 

 

Spiris

[diggerdanh]

Maybe you already know this, but I thought that I would mention it.

 

Aye, I've done plenty of book-learnin' on the Turks. I have 2 K.Kale rifles and this 1954 Turk ATF marked rifle - a Gew. 98 refurb. I forget what the correct number is but I've read that there were only like 10-15,000 1954-1956 ATF marked refurbs. That makes this an interesting piece of history. Too bad mine was really beat up and none of the numbers matched.

 

Now I can't state how the rest of the rifles were done - this one does have the hand guard lip cut of course, but the barrel was not shortened in the thread area - it was left as-is. A couple of threads are visible in the area where the recess was made.

 

Thanks for throwing that in Spiris. It'll help provide a complete picture for those reading this thread later on down the road, like me in a couple of years when I can't remember why the bolt in this rifle won't close on a GO gage.

 

 

 

 

[Doble Troble]

I'd take Clemson's advice and test with a cartridge. You could do this with a live round at the range, or could full length resize some brass and test safely at home.

 

If using your own dies to resize fired brass you can close the bolt without much effort - you've probably got a minimum headspace chamber for your reloading set-up. This isn't a bad problem to have.

 

If the brass resists being closed on, you've got a weird chamber that needs fixing.

 

The good news is that it probably only needs a turn or two with a reamer - the co-op has the reamer. If you get to this point, making a chamber cast would be highly advisable - the bore is ~ 0.323", right?

[weaver77]

i agree that you should try a fully resized case if there is only slight resistance you can try lapping the bolt lugs for the last couple of thousandths you need i just put a 308 norma together with min head space i actually have slight resistance against go gauage just as bolt fully closes but full lenght resized brass chambers just fine goes to show you just how much variation there is in gauges seems like there is as much as .006 between go and no go and about another .004 to .006 between field and no go on i have not ever taken the time to see how much diff there is in full lenght resised case but that would also depend on your particular dies and shell holder

as a side note i also have seen gun nuts face off their shell holder or die so that brass can be resized enough to chamber not sure if i would ever do this though for fear that reloads for that gun may end up being fired in a different one

 

james

[diggerdanh]

I'm not a reloader (yet!), in fact I don't even shoot any of them all that much except for my Rem 870 Express during deer season and a couple of .22 rifles whenever I get to the indoor range a couple of times a year. I'd like to shoot more but I just don't yet. I just like building them.

 

As Clemson suggested, I tried to close the bolt (removed the shroud/firing pin just in case, but left the extractor on) on a live round. The bolt closed and locked fine.

 

So I'm thinking that the chamber is probably on the tight side and uses the older style 20 degree 48 minutes shoulder and that newer-style 8x57 Forster head space gauge that I have, that has a 19 degree shoulder, is not measuring the chamber correctly.

 

I think to play it safe (and because it will probably end up in the possession of one of my sons eventually) I will hold off on firing it until I get a chance to use a reamer on it to clean up the chamber to be certain.

 

Thanks for all your help guys. Build is finished - I just finished mounting scope an hour or so ago and doing some other minor clean up. I'll post some pics and details a little later.

[gun nutty]

I'd leave it alone. As long as factory ammo chambers, who cares? You have a minimum-dimensioned chamber that will absolutely headspace factory rounds. Some folks pay for that. You haven't even seen how the thing groups yet.

 

You might be opening a can of worms. Running a newer reamer with a different shoulder angle may or may not clean up the chamber completely without setting the barrel back. Fired cases could have a small, additional shoulder upon extraction, or rings at the dissimilar angle junction. If the barrel shoots well as-is, cutting a new chamber could adversely affect the accuracy of the rifle.

 

If a chamber casting measures as 8X57, I'd look at downrange performance before doing anything else.

 

 

[Clemson]

Agreed. I think you are OK to shoot it. The rifle (other thread) turned out nice!

 

Clemson

[diggerdanh]

Thanks gun nutty and Clemson. That's what I intend to do. I'll take her to the range and see how she does and keep an eye open for signs of high pressure.