.284 Vs .285 For 1895 Mauser

[ahoyza]

Iv'e been a Mauser fan my whole life.

Ive had a 1895 Chilean 7x57 for over 20 years.

It shoots well with european ammo. (2" at 50yrds, 3x scope)

And NOT with American ammo (like miss the whole target bad!)

I was leaning towards case length and headspace UNTIL

I came across an authoritative website that says european 7mm's are .285 vs .284 for American.

So I grabbed the old calipers and SHO NUF the American bullets were .284 and .285 for euro's.

Trying to find .285 bullets, I found you can get them from South Aferica but at about $2ea.

You can mould 7mms at .285 or .286, but I have yet to undertake that hobby.

Any input on this subject I will be VERY grateful for, I really don't want to retire my 116 yr old rifle, it's brand new!

-Ahoyza aka mr.mauserhowzer

[ken98k]

Welcome to the site.

My guess is you'll just have to keep shooting european ammo.

[wiley]

I would suspect that .001" difference has little to do with your issue. The original 7mm round that these were designed for was for a long heavy bullet with a rifling twist that was tailored for it. Modern 7x57 uses a lighter bullet with a different twist.

If you want to do a .285 bullet, casting would be the most logical step; but a long heavy bullet would still be necessary.

Another methodology is called "bumping up" the bullet diameter, here's a discussion: http://www.lasc.us/Brennan_4-1_BulletSizingBumping.htm

While bumping up is mainly for cast bullets, bullet swage dies from Corbin or CH4D should be sources, you would have to pay for a specialty die diameter and the jacket would tend to spring back, meaning that the die diameter would need to be bigger than .285".

HTH

Wiley

[tinkerfive]

I would suspect that .001" difference has little to do with your issue. The original 7mm round that these were designed for was for a long heavy bullet with a rifling twist that was tailored for it. Modern 7x57 uses a lighter bullet with a different twist.

 

Wiley

 

I'd tend to agree with Wiley.

Check your land diameter. If it's anything like .280, I'd think it enough to grip a .284.

I'm thinking like Mr. Wiley that it is more of a bullet weight and twist rate issue than

bullet diameter issue. Of course the 'charge' could be a major contributing factor too.

Do you have a chronograph to compare the two?

 

Tinker

[ahoyza]

Thanks for all the info folks. I forgot to mention part of my crisis is that I only have 8 european rounds left!

Yes, it could be a charge or bullet weight issue. I may try some 175's as original military rounds are 173.

What is the best way to measure lands?

Thanks for the info on bullet bumping, I will try it when I get around to moulding.

I could borrow a chrono but the american bullets shoot so bad i'm afraid I'd hit it ... does it tell you which direction bullets fly?

I just can't put that mauser down!

-ahoyza aka Mr.MauserHowzer

[gun nutty]

When you say "miss the target", can you see where the bullets are hitting? Are they actually grouping?

 

If the European ammo is producing 2" groups, what size groups are American factory rounds producing?

 

My only reason for mentioning this is that "velocity" and "accuracy" don't necessarily have to have a linear relationship with ammunition.

 

I'm also curious about the holes created on the target by the American ammo. Are the holes perfectly round, or are the bullets "key-holing" the target (hitting sideways).

 

If you're not seeing where the rounds are hitting, move yourself closer to the target or the target closer to you. I sight in my rifles at about 15-25 yards, about an inch low. Then I move back to 100 yards.

 

European ammo for older cartridges tends to be much hotter than American. The European may allow you to use the issue sights in default position, but US ammo may required some sight regulation.

[ahoyza]

Thank you guys for the info.

Yes I will investigate your ideas about my innacuracy challenges with american bullets.

As far as grouping: 2" with european ammo 12-24" with american factory or american handloaded bullets. (50yds)

No, no oblong bullet holes, just the usual.

No, my sights are not off, I use a 3x scope and shoot 2" groups with the euros.

I belong to a gun club and 50 yards is as close as I can get!

A guy at work suggested I buy a new rifle. Well mine is like new, its only 116!

(I have a new S&W Ibolt, its accurate as heck, weighs less than my mauser's extracter, but it is for sale. I like mausers!)

I have a shoestring budget, tell me what you think of the following experiments:

1) Take calipers to a gun show and buy some .285 ammo or bullets and try them (likely european).

2) Match American bulleted handloads as close as I can to euro (same oal, grains, powder type).

3) Just try other powder / bullet combos

Watcha think.

Thanks for the forum

_ahoyza

[99-100]

How long have you had it? Look at the muzzle. When I got mine I couldn't hit a 3x3 piece of paper reliably. I had the local gunsmith cut and re-crown it and it's remarkable

[ahoyza]

hey 99-100

What am I looking for in the muzzle?

[ahoyza]

99-100,

I've had it since the late 80's.

It consistently shoot well with european ammo not american, but its hard to find.

Do you have a chilean? Is it sporterized?

-ahoyza

[724wd]

hey 99-100

What am I looking for in the muzzle?

 

wear from overzealous cleaning. can you drop a 7mm bullet down the muzzle?

[Jeff H]

........Yes, it could be a charge or bullet weight issue. I may try some 175's as original military rounds are 173.

What is the best way to measure lands?............-ahoyza aka Mr.MauserHowzer

 

I agree with those doubting the .001" making a big difference. I have shot a lot of 7mm and 6.5 originals and new commercial stuff over the years and have found that it's usually one or both ends of the barrel that presents the challenges, while what's in the middle can look like it's growing hair and not cause serious problems.

 

One Swede in particular, with a very nice bore and new crown would group .263" CIL 160 grain RNs, .264" Hornady 160 grain RNs and .264" Sierra 160 grain SPs into an inch and a quarter to an inch at a hundred yards. It shot 140 grain and 87 grain bullets as well - as long as I seated them very long. Tried Remington 6.5mm 140s and they were a disaster - 4" groups. A bit of correspondence with Remington and it became clear - their 6.5 140 was made for the 6.5 Remington Mag. and had a dual diameter, with the front part of the projectile being very undersized. What this did was not allow them to be seated so the full-diameter portion was close enough to the rifling - the problems were not because the undersized part didn't "fit" the grooves.

 

Same thing with the 7x57 - I usually found long throats, so the longer (and heavier) bullets always worked better. Many lighter (shorter) bullets can be seated long enough to work well, but some just don't quite get there depending on the nose configuration.

 

If your European ammo shoots well but not the US-made ammo, in all likelihood the crown is at least not horrible. If you look at the US ammo you are shooting and see that the bullet weight is more along the lines of modern tastes (130 to 154 grains) it could well be that the other end of the barrel - the throat, is what is challenging your patience. They may just not be as close to the rifling as the longer European bullets.

[ahoyza]

Jeff H.

I think you are right about the muzzle, it shoots good with euros so it must be ok.

As far as longer heavier bullets, I follow your logic and am planning on trying 175's.

But why then do european 139 grains shoot well? The overall length on those are even shorter than the american factory ammo!

I dunno if Ive ever been as zealous to figure something out as this, perhaps because its been a 20+ year issue!

Another difference is the brass. Winchester brass takes a #1rcbs shellholder, euro's take #11. There must be a small difference there.

I may load some up with the european brass and give it a whirl. Even when it shoots bad I love that action!

-Ahoyza.

[99-100]

hey 99-100

What am I looking for in the muzzle?

I've got a "sportered" 94 done circa 1968. When I looked at the muzzle with a magnifying glass you could see the rifling wasn't "clean". Though if it's a particular round it could be that "one" hits the sweet spot. Not only did the smith cut it but he put a "target crown" on it.

[Jeff H]

......As far as longer heavier bullets, I follow your logic and am planning on trying 175's.

But why then do european 139 grains shoot well? The overall length on those are even shorter than the american factory ammo!

-Ahoyza.

 

Any one, or a combination of the possible causes mentioned could be right - or something that none of us have thought of which may only be obvious if we were shooting the rifle. It's a matter of looking at the most plausible explanations first, without ruling out the others, and eliminating variables one at a time.

 

To 99-100's point, your muzzle could be fine for the most part, but have different effects with different projectiles. The gas that propels the bullets will escape between the muzzle and the projectile as it exits and the jets of gas will be affected (directed) by the base of the bullet. So, one bullet may not shoot well at all or another may shoot exceptionally well even if you have the crown recut.

 

In addition, and in response to your question above, the shape of the nose, base, length of the bearing surface of the bullet all play a part in how close the full-diameter portion of the bullet is to the rifling. Overall length of two loaded cartridges with two different weights of projectiles could produce the same distance from bearing surface to rifling and two same-weight (but differently shaped) bullets could produce a difference in that distance. If you are not loading the cartridges yourself, you are getting the bullet shape and seating depth the manufacturer chose for you. I have found on several rifles that I can experiment and find two "lighter than standard" projectiles of the same weight, one of which I can seat far enough out to get close to the rifling but the other cannot be seated far enough out.

 

Narrowing things down to the most likely causes and then picking at each one individually is a god place to start, but experimenting is how you will rule any of them out and narrow the possible causes further.

[ahoyza]

Update!

I measured the throat and it is way long. I'm looking for 175g round nose bullets, will post results when I get 'em.

Bet that'l do it.

Sold the new black lightweight 30.06 and traded it for a vintage Ruger #1. Serious wood and metal, you all would love it.

(But now I get to figure out what ammmo it likes, seems like high end of charge table loads, but that is for another forum!)

 

The 2nd ammendment only applies to the militia, and the militia is called the United States of America!

[mrbigtexan]

have you checked prvi-partisan ammo? it worked wonders for a british 303 that i had. it is reasonably priced, non corrosive, and is reloadable brass as well.

[ahoyza]

Bullseye!

Thanks one and all for the updates and info.

I bought an old box of 139g hornady FLAT NOSE bullets!

(Designed for the oddball 7mm lever action rifle)

Shot well over 4350

And excellent with "gallery load" 9g of pistol powder.

(holes touching at 50yds)

Next test is to try some 175's

Thanks all.