scott63 Posted January 26, 2007 Report Share Posted January 26, 2007 Z1r, I really like the bolt handles you have previously posted and I'm wondering if you have any pics of them in the bolt holding jig prior to welding? After welding do you place them in a jig and use a mill to get the top of the root so flat? I'm working on one for a small ring now, and I'm pretty happy with it. I have also learned a lot, but mostly by making some mistakes. Thanks for any help....Scott Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scott63 Posted January 26, 2007 Author Report Share Posted January 26, 2007 Scott I don't know for sure about Mike but i very carefully file mine flat and if i had to guess Mike is like me being a talented metalsmith i am pretty sure he files them too a good craftsman can file them perfect without even having to think about it it just comes natural. I for one know he has that ability too i can see it in all the work he does now some of the guys well i would not want anyone to see what carnage i done unless i was asking for help to clean it up. God knows were not all perfect and all of us mess up something but some of us are better than others. To do them right you need vision and i don't mean your eyes being perfect. I mean you need to be able to graps what it should look like when finished and be confident you can achieve that goal. That can be tough the first time you do it but it gets better. I was nervous doing that last one since i had alot of issues to address that i never see with a normal handle. That is when talent takes over. Rod Rod, after my meager attemp at bolt welding/filing I would wholeheartedly agree there is a lot of natural ability required, but practice definitely helps. Seeing how the handle is placed in the welding jig would help me for the next one though........Scott Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doble Troble Posted January 27, 2007 Report Share Posted January 27, 2007 The only thing that I would add to Rod's excellent analysis is that WE'RE ALL CAPABLE of the best craftsmanship. The only thing that most of us are missing is EXPERIENCE. It doesn't matter how talented you are, without experience you're just not going to do this type of work well. That being said, those with talent will produce great work with less experience, but that's no excuse for us lesser mortals to give up. We can do it too! We just have to pay attention to the technique of the more capable, think carefully about what we're doing, keep working at it, and MOST IMPORTANT...NEVER GIVE UP! The vision Rod talks about is real, and it will come to everyone who seeks it as long as they don't give up. I think most of us who have gotten sucked into this pursuit sense that this is true, and that's why we spend so much time and effort in this pursuit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flaco Posted January 27, 2007 Report Share Posted January 27, 2007 z1r, I believe, is in the process of moving from California to Colorado. I'd bet he'll get back to you--as he has responded to so many of us needing advice--when he gets a chance. He's the only member of the forum I've met personally, and I'm grateful to have had the opportunity to shoot with him on our 200 yard range. Let's hope he still has time--with his new job--to help the many of us on the forum needing advice. flaco Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
z1r Posted February 25, 2007 Report Share Posted February 25, 2007 Well gents, I don't really have any setup pics and my jigs are all boxed up. But, each setup varies according to the desired outcome. I use paper cutouts (templates) that help me maintatin the proper relationship between parts. Mainly for gaging bolt angle using a particular handle. I do use the mill for removing metal after welding. It helps keep things square especially when you are trying to get things done quickly and you have a lot of excess weld to remove. Do you need a mill, no and I've done many without. But it definitely helps when you are trying to move things along quickly. But final shaping is always done with a file(s). I see a lot of handles that have excellent welds but the surface finish along the handle shows that the crafter did not pay much attention to shaping & blending. The mechanics of proper welding & angle are easy enough. But leaving a finish where the surface is even and not wavey and, where the angles that need to be square are, is what seperates a good job from an ok job. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
horse trader Posted February 26, 2007 Report Share Posted February 26, 2007 not to steal the thread but brownells next month flyer shows how to cut the root 2/3 then heat and bend down then fill gap in and finish.a interesting point,ive been doing them this way for 40 years,i learned from a gunsmith that went to school with the pillars of the gunsmithing world or new them on first name basis.point is back then there were no migs, tigs,or fancy welders he stuck a bolt in the end a wet towel around the face and arced it up with a old lincoln or used ox/act with a coat hanger.now when people talk about welding bolts the young kids would have a heart attack at this method. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
donmarkey Posted February 26, 2007 Report Share Posted February 26, 2007 I've always OA welded them, for no better reason than that's what I own. I mig welded one once and the thing broke off and the range, better ther than in the woods. Now I find it's easier to send the bolt to Mike or Rod to do and spend my time on other projects. -Don Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
z1r Posted February 26, 2007 Report Share Posted February 26, 2007 not to steal the thread but brownells next month flyer shows how to cut the root 2/3 then heat and bend down then fill gap in and finish.a interesting point,ive been doing them this way for 40 years,i learned from a gunsmith that went to school with the pillars of the gunsmithing world or new them on first name basis.point is back then there were no migs, tigs,or fancy welders he stuck a bolt in the end a wet towel around the face and arced it up with a old lincoln or used ox/act with a coat hanger.now when people talk about welding bolts the young kids would have a heart attack at this method. Back then they used to pack the bolts in wet asbestos to control heat. Now we have better heat control pastes. AO can work if you are good enough to control heat or have the parts heat treated afterward. Problem is, very few practitioners are that good any more. One oft overlooked benefit of AO is that you can use the torch to reharden the critical surfaces after welding. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fritz Posted February 26, 2007 Report Share Posted February 26, 2007 "Back then they used to pack the bolts in wet asbestos to control heat. Now we have better heat control pastes. AO can work if you are good enough to control heat or have the parts heat treated afterward. Problem is, very few practitioners are that good any more. One oft overlooked benefit of AO is that you can use the torch to reharden the critical surfaces after welding. " Back when I was starting farming, there were still blacksmiths in every town. Those fellows could harden a piece of steel by sheer looks, and by years of experience. Today there are not many blacksmiths left, and farmers just buy new parts that don't last as long as the old ones made by the blacksmith. The same can be said about gunsmiths. Back then we had gunsmiths that could weld sucessfully with stuff like coathangers (which is very close to many O/A steel rods). Heat treating was a hit or miss proposition, some could do it naturally while others just guessed. A guess job might be OK for occasional use of the firearm, but could fail under stress. Today, we live in a world dominated by the "I'll sue you" attitude. Make the wrong guess and get sued. One lawsuit will put a gunsmith out of business. I'm surprised that there are still as many of them left as there is, but they all carry good insurance policies (if they are smart). And we wonder why doctors charge so much. If you knew what they have to pay for insurance, you'd see why they charge more than the doctor played by Robert Young on TV in the old days. Sorry if this strayed from bolt welding, but it might explain why there aren't as many fellows around who do it anymore. fritz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
horse trader Posted February 26, 2007 Report Share Posted February 26, 2007 fritz your right about the sue you society,these kids in gunsmithing school if they dont make it as gunsmiths they can become lawyers with all the law classes and insurance courses,no tung oil causes allergies,no trigger pulls under 3r4 lbs etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hodgie Posted February 26, 2007 Report Share Posted February 26, 2007 only being 29, i cant really relate to how things used to be, but i do my bolt handles the same as horse trader. i have done quitte a few this way, i always rough in with a mill, then file the rest Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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