oldgrandpainmi Posted July 12, 2005 Report Share Posted July 12, 2005 Well guys and gals, the answer MIGHT suprise you!!! I posted this question 4+weeks ago but decided to repost to allow more viewing!!! I have just recieved an answer to that question via telephone from Michael Knapp of the B.A.T.F.E., and really was suprised with his answers! Pretty much, if you do more than look at it, it seems to be reclasified! Here is what he has told me: "ANY work done to any 03 clasified weapon that changes it's funtion or appearence from the origonal configuration, will change it's classification from 03." Here are some examples he gave to me: 1) Changing or modifying the action including bending the bolt handle. 2) Changing or modifying the barrel. 3) Changing or modifying the stock. (see below) 4) Total rebluing and/or finishing. (see below) 5) Adding/modifying a scope or iron sights 6) Removal of folding bayonets. Here are some more statements: "If you take an 03 weapon and do a cold blue touch-up on minor missing bluing, you do not change the classification, but, if you do a total reblue, plating, parkerizing, polished the steel, or anything that changes its appearence from the origonal configuration, the weapon is not an 03 any more." "Stocks can be changed with ORIGONAL stocks of that era and can be refinished, but if you modify it in any way, including the modification of the stock to accept a bent handle bolt, it changes from 03." Replacement parts can be used if from the same vintage, but cannot be of new manufacture. Also from page 107 of the Federal Firearms Regulations Reference Guide, under paragraph 27cfr178.118, it states: "In classifying firearms as curios or relics under this regulation, ATF has recognized only assembled firearms as curios or relics. Moreover, ATF's classification of surplus military firearms as curios or relics has extended only to those firearms in their origonal military configuration. Frames or recievers of curios or relics and surplus military firearms not in their origonal military configuration were not generally recognized as curios or relics by ATF since they were not of special intrest or value as a collector's items." (This is the paragraph Michael kept refering to.) Due to the limited amount of time I was able to talk to him (because of personal reasons), I was not able to ask him more. So, in a week or so, I will be contacting him again via phone. If you have a question you would like asked, please email me or leave a message in my inbox (oldgrandpainmi@aol.com). You can also call him direct at 304-260-1699 if you wish. OGPIM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Guest_mod70 Posted July 12, 2005 Report Share Posted July 12, 2005 Did he imply it was illegal to do any of these things or just that it changed their classification? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
z1r Posted July 12, 2005 Report Share Posted July 12, 2005 I don't see what the big deal is. It simply changes their classification. Makes sense to me since the idea is that these are collectibles if in original condition. Once you start modifying them they loose that collectibility. It also makes sense to me that you could not scope one for example then sell it as a C&R. It would be circumventing the requirement for an 01 ffl. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldgrandpainmi Posted July 12, 2005 Author Report Share Posted July 12, 2005 Mod 70- There was no discussion. As a matter of fact, it seemed that he understood what I was doing and have already done to my 8mm rifle, and didn't pay paticular concern with what I've already done. The main focus was what could be done and not done to ANY weapon that is classified as a 03 C&R to keep it a C&R. I wanted to ask more about the classification change and how it effects the A&D (bound) book, but had to let him go. As stated, I will be calling him again, soon! I edited my post to include a paragraph quoted from the firearms regulations guide that you may have missed! ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- z1r- you posted when I did so I missed your reply untill now!!! My origonal question, way back when, pertained to what I could do, or not, to a 03 class weapon (like my Turk Mauser) and still be able to sell it as a C&R under the rules and regs of my 03FFL, without getting in trouble. The answer is 'NOT MUCH, IF ANYTHING!!!" OGPIM Sporterized weapons are like kids...... Half the fun in having them is making them!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doble Troble Posted July 13, 2005 Report Share Posted July 13, 2005 Thanks for the info, OGPIM. Well done getting a straight answer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sailormilan2 Posted July 13, 2005 Report Share Posted July 13, 2005 If I modify a C&R, so that it is no longer a C&R, and I keep it, that is fine...........correct? Then, if I decide to sell it, and go through a -01 dealer, that should be okay, too...................correct?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doble Troble Posted July 13, 2005 Report Share Posted July 13, 2005 If I modify a C&R, so that it is no longer a C&R, and I keep it, that is fine...........correct? I almost don't want the answer. If it's not what I want it to be I'm in deep doo-doo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fritz Posted July 13, 2005 Report Share Posted July 13, 2005 You'll probably get a slightly different answer to that question--depending on who at the bureau you speak to. The one that is important to you is the one who will inspect your collection someday. But that is rare. fritz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
z1r Posted July 13, 2005 Report Share Posted July 13, 2005 IMHO, Altering it is ok as long as you keep it. It is upon disposition of the firearm that the issue has any real bearing. I read his reply as saying once modified it can no longer be treated as a CR for transfer purposes. But then I think we all knew that already. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FC Posted July 13, 2005 Report Share Posted July 13, 2005 I agree Z1. The government loves the C&R licenses. They don't come out and say you can't change anything on your rifle. When you change it it is not a C&R any longer. Now, if you occasionally sell a gun, you don't need to sweat bullets because you scoped it. To me that is just common sense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mod70 Posted July 13, 2005 Report Share Posted July 13, 2005 z1r & all Your points are well taken but I have found, through reading government produced codes pertaining to business issues, that some things that seem logical and straight forward to me are not always viewed with the same 'clarity' or perspective as a government agency might interpret a particular issue. I am putting my guess on that it is OK to add scopes etc if the resulting issue is kept in one's own possesion and, since that is what I am personally doing, I feel comfortable with my changing a few old Turks into scoped sporting rifles. If I were selling them I would definately want a thorough and written oppinion from an ATF representative Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
odies dad Posted July 13, 2005 Report Share Posted July 13, 2005 I think a lot of this would only apply to the C&Rs that are less than 50 years old like the SKS's. The 50+ year old receiver is still 50+ years old if it has a scope on it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jasonthehunted Posted July 14, 2005 Report Share Posted July 14, 2005 Im looking to get a C&R soon. Now are barreled actions eligible to be sold as C&R or do they have to be entire rifles? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
roscoedoh Posted July 14, 2005 Report Share Posted July 14, 2005 Guys, IF you have a C&R license, don't go into the commercial gunsmithing business. I don't think anyone is saying you can't dispose of any firearms, C&R or otherwise. I have always been told to merely log the altered C&R out of log book as it is no longer a C&R. Whether its a C&R or not, why can't you still sell it? C&R holders may sell their collection at any time as well as buy/sell/trade to increase their collection. As a non-licensee, I can dispose of any and all firearms I own so long as the person I'm selling to is legally able to purchase them. I'd think the same applies to a C&R holder. Let us just make sure we're not getting too carried away here. C&R's are supposed to be a common sense thing. The BATF doesn't hate collectors of old bolt action rifles. At worst, as a licensee you may be audited and be held accountable for where your collection went. As long as it doesn't look like you were running a business or conducting other activities that would require an 01 FFL, you'll be fine. Moreover, do what I do and take the easiest way out of all this; don't sell anything. Let us all step back from this issue for a few minutes and consider it. I'd doubt the BATF is going to kick your door down and drag you off in chains for putting a scope on your Mauser. There's too many real criminals out there to occupy their time. Just follow the rules and don't do what they explicitly tell you not to do when modifying your rifle and have fun. Jason Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Horsefly Posted July 14, 2005 Report Share Posted July 14, 2005 I reckon the C&R rules are to prevent folks like us from buying 39.00 Turks,doing all the stuff we do to them,and then selling them for 500.00 and shipping them through the mail classified as a Curio&Relic.Makes sense to me.Jerry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mausermeister Posted July 14, 2005 Report Share Posted July 14, 2005 I reckon the C&R rules are to prevent folks like us from buying 39.00 Turks,doing all the stuff we do to them,and then selling them for 500.00 and shipping them through the mail classified as a Curio&Relic.Makes sense to me.Jerry That's exactly the intention. If you are regularly building sporters and then selling them, you are operating a business, regardless of profit or loss or time spent doing it, and you need at minimum a type 01 license. Also, if you make a habit of buying Century 5 for deals and selling 4 of them you are operating in a very blurry grey legal area and totally at the whim and mercy of the interpretation of the field agent who checks you. If you have an FFL, you WILL eventually get audited. Just use your heads folks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FC Posted July 17, 2005 Report Share Posted July 17, 2005 Jason, the answer is no. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jasonthehunted Posted July 17, 2005 Report Share Posted July 17, 2005 thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spec4 e4 Posted July 17, 2005 Report Share Posted July 17, 2005 Not trying to be an smart a$$, but do you have this in writting. I would not do any thing till I have it in writting from the BATF. spec.4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Unregistered guest Posted July 17, 2005 Report Share Posted July 17, 2005 You can sell 6 non C&R rifles per year. This was decided in July of 1968 at a lunch meeting in the immediate aftermath of the GCA. It was noticed that there were several glaring omissions in the regulations. Whoever the Field bureau chief of Boston was at the time delivered this number as an edict or fiat. It is totally abritrary and has no basis in GCA or anywhere else. Whether or not you can actually sell the rifle at all is determined by your state regulations. In California, I may sell any lawful firearm (Long Gun - rifle or shotgun) which as an individual item can be shown to be more than 50 years old. It does not mean the model number. If you have a model 98 anything, it could have been built as late as 1969 - not eligible for sale. The serial number or the receiver date has to be proveably 50 + years. Similar to the difference between M-91 Lowes, and M-91 DWM. Additionally, the receiving party must also be a resident of the state of California, or a licensed C&R. He CANNOT be an FFL 01, UNLESS I ship it to him out of state, only to his place of business. He, the buyer, also must be lawfully able to buy the gun. And, of course, he may also be a she. As long as he/she has money. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doble Troble Posted July 17, 2005 Report Share Posted July 17, 2005 Hey UG, were you at that lunch meeting, or just listening in from the next table? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Unregistered guest Posted July 17, 2005 Report Share Posted July 17, 2005 I was under the napkin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carzngunz Posted July 18, 2005 Report Share Posted July 18, 2005 I have been reading through all of this and it seems that this subject comes up a lot on almost every forum that deals with C&R firearms. I am not trying to be a "smart a**" with what I am going to say but it is hard to believe that so many people that take the time to become so knowledgeable about firearms don't do this. If you are going to have any type of FFL you need to read through both the Federal and State laws pertaining to firearms. The BATFE sends the books to every licensee covering both sets of laws. I know its boring, I know its hard to read, I know that sometimes you have to reread a paragraph several times to make sense out of it but ultimately you are responsible for what you do as a licensee. The BATFE doesn't make the laws, politicians do. They have as difficult a time trying to decipher some of this as we do. Most of the C&R laws are pretty clear if you take the time to read through them. The first time I looked through the book of "guidelines" or the BATFE's C&R book I found several mistakes. That is because I read the laws first and not their version of the laws. I see misquotes on the internet all the time too. You can look over the material and pick out the laws that pertain to collecting. It is only a small part of all these laws, but you are responsible for knowing them. If you make a mistake because "unregistered guest" told you to, he won't be the one held answerable to the authorities. If you take the time to do this, you will find that you will remember the things that pertain to you, and if you don't remember all the details you will be able to find the answers quickly. In addition you will quickly be able to spot the BS that people who really have no clue like to spout off. I am through ranting for now. Neither do I want to start a discussion of which law says what. I am not interested in participating in that one either. All I want is for everyone to take a little time to read and I can promise you that you will have a better feeling about what is expected of a licensed collector. Rant off, Scott Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Unregistered guest Posted July 18, 2005 Report Share Posted July 18, 2005 Hey, its me carzngunz. I'd be very interested if you cite your authority. If I have made even one mistatement in my paragraph above I will appologize to all, and retire from ever commenting here again. If you cannot cite even one authority, I wouldn't mind if you appologized to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doble Troble Posted July 18, 2005 Report Share Posted July 18, 2005 Hey UG, how many "authorities" were under that napkin with you? Thanks for your good post, carzngunz. You're right, everybody got the book and is responsible for studying it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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