1st Mauser Again, Help!

[Ron J]

Okay I was slow to respond and thank you guys for your help. I did try a couple days ago. Honest. Thank you all for the help. Doble, I put the sight you mentioned in my favorite group, thanks. And Sonic, I live in Cleveland, Ohio.

I have been reading everything I can on this forum (great stuff) but now I'm really confused. A 1903 Turk has had threads removed to create the sleeve in front. A K Kale turk is a M38, but the sleeve is integral so a little extra length. A M48 is the Yugo that is advertised in the magazines as Mitchells Mausers? What then is a 24/47? Also what are VZ24's? And what is a gew? Now, everyone says the south american stuff is lousy, but 1909 Argentines, Chileans are okay. I've been told a Brazilian 1908 is desirable, is it? I know this is a bunch of questions to answer, but I'm lost. Another thing is this heat treat issue. I have been around heat treat for 20+ years and if Blanchards will carburize and harden a receiver + bolt for $70.00, that is not terribly high. Carburizing is not simple heat treat and if they don't warp these, they must know their doo-doo trust me. Do they have a website? I googled and got nowhere. I'm thinking a good book or 2 would help out. Recommendations? Van Olsen's and Kuhnhausen's seem to be quoted often.

[Doble Troble]

Walnut,

 

Rome wasn't built in a day.

 

You'll get all of this sorted-out, but it's going to take some time.

 

There are lots of different kinds of Mausers out there, each with advantages and disadvantages sporterizing-wise.

 

You've got the 1903 and K. Kale Turks figured-out regarding the relieved receiver ring. If you've got a lathe I can recommend the K. Kale as a good Mauser to start your sporterizing career. The receiver overhang is easily faced off and gives you a nice, square surface to mate your barrel to. One thing you have to remember about the K. Kale is that it takes a small ring barrel, and so this kind-of limits your choices of pre-threaded barrels, but you can get a 6.5 x 55 and a 7 x 57 - what else does anyone need .

 

I would avoid Mitchell's Mausers - I think they're a rip-off. If you want one pretty Mauser to put in your gun rack maybe, but not if you're going to sporterize it.

 

The M48 and 24/47s are intermediate length. They're not quite as long as the other actions based on the 98 design. This makes them nice for sporters in the original X x 57 length chamberings, but a bit tight for cartridges based on the 30-06 case. I really like the 24/47s I've had.

 

Regarding the South American Mausers, I don't think there's anything inherently wrong with any of them. Mexico was responsible for some very desireable small ring actions based on the 98 design that are smaller and considered light weight. The problem I think that most people have with the S. Am Mausers is that they generally were poorly stored and tend to be deteriorated. There are a lot of nice 1909 Argentine actions out there and they are very desirable because they have commercial-like quick release bottom metal.

 

You'll get all of this figured-out soon enough.

 

Just figure-out how to get your hands on any old Mauser built on a 98 action and you'll have a good basis for sporterizing. If you find that you're confronted by multiple choices - congratulations! This is a great problem to have. Post about what your choices are and you'll get help making a decision.

 

When you find your starting rifle, post about it, and you'll get great advice about how to make it into what you want.

[z1r]

I have been reading everything I can on this forum (great stuff) but now I'm really confused. A 1903 Turk has had threads removed to create the sleeve in front. No, the 1903 is a standard length 98 BUT, it has an intermediate length bolt. That makes the front ring longer than a standard 98 even though both are the same length. It also threaded like a small ring but the shank is approx .700"+ vs .630" for the K.Kale & standard 98s. It is essentially the same as the Highly coveted Peruvian 1909. It was the Turked gew 98's that had the thread removed, not the 1903's. A K Kale turk is a M38, but the sleeve is integral so a little extra length. Correct, but once you remove the lip the ring will end up about the same length as a standard 98. A M48 is the Yugo that is advertised in the magazines as Mitchells Mausers? What then is a 24/47? the 24/47 is related to the Yugo M48, both are intermediate length actions. Also what are VZ24's? And what is a gew? Now, everyone says the south american stuff is lousy, but 1909 Argentines, Chileans are okay. I've been told a Brazilian 1908 is desirable, is it? I know this is a bunch of questions to answer, but I'm lost. The vz24 is a czech made variant of the 98 and a good action. The South Americans were all made by Germany, FN, or CZ so I fail to see how they are lousey. Many can be pitted now but they started life as fine actions. The Gew was the original 98. WWI era, actually dating from 1898. . Another thing is this heat treat issue. I have been around heat treat for 20+ years and if Blanchards will carburize and harden a receiver + bolt for $70.00, that is not terribly high. Carburizing is not simple heat treat and if they don't warp these, they must know their doo-doo trust me. Do they have a website? I googled and got nowhere. I'm thinking a good book or 2 would help out. Recommendations? Van Olsen's and Kuhnhausen's seem to be quoted often. Kuhnhausens book is about the best for a do it yerselfer. It also has Blanchards' number.

[Ron J]

Many thanks. This is getting better. I'm having brain farts with the countries. I think my South american statement was supposed to be "Spanish". As I said I have been reading this forum like crazy, even the archives. Lathe work is no problem. My brother recently rebarreled a M70 to .358 Norma and it came out very well. On the Mausers we figure to cut the barrel thds 55 degree rather than tap the receivers to 60. Today I'm off to a gunshow to put prices to these models, but it seems the Turks are the cheapest even with re-heat treat. The barrel is out of my Kale and if I ever figure out posting pictures, I'll post progress.

[i]Just until you guys get sick of my questions and throw me off this thing!

[z1r]

Many thanks. This is getting better. I'm having brain farts with the countries. I think my South american statement was supposed to be "Spanish". Yup, Spanish is what you want to avoid. As I said I have been reading this forum like crazy, even the archives. Lathe work is no problem. My brother recently rebarreled a M70 to .358 Norma and it came out very well. On the Mausers we figure to cut the barrel thds 55 degree rather than tap the receivers to 60. Very good idea. You're off to a good start. Today I'm off to a gunshow to put prices to these models, but it seems the Turks are the cheapest even with re-heat treat. The barrel is out of my Kale and if I ever figure out posting pictures, I'll post progress.

[i]Just until you guys get sick of my questions and throw me off this thing!

 

Fire away with the questions.

 

[Ron J]

Well here's what the Mauser's are going for around Cleveland gun shows. Turks are 69.95 Kales or otherwise. One was much older than mine, like 1915 or so, but looked identical to my 1943 - just as crude. Yugo 24/47 's are anywhere from 169.00 to several hundred. The high ones were excellent looking but were supposedly special runs numbered xx of 1000. A well worn but usable VZ24 was 109.00. Then I picked up something I probably shouldn't have. A Swedish M38 Carl Gustav Stads. Small ring. It cocked on close and had what seemed like a longer cocking piece sticking out the back. It was 6.5 x 55. All the extras were with it and it almost seemed wrong to cut it up. Even the wood was nice. I was drooling over this thing. They want 200.00. If I was to spring for one of these, can they be changed to cock on open? Do these fall into the catagory of "may have to be re-heat treated"? God, that thing was sharp. The talk was that the Yugos are going to dry up soon due to some U.N. thing. All in all the VZ was made nicer than the Kale for 40 more, but saw enough use to just about wear the crest off.

The Swede was that one doll you see walking through a crowd that makes you forget where you were going!

[z1r]

Go back and get the swede. Then get the VZ24 and the K.Kale. That's what I would do if they were that cheap around here. I would have grabed the one with the 1916 date, was it a Turk?

 

The K.Kale's are remarkably straight despite the crude appearance.

 

Here is one I made for my dad.

 

[Ron J]

Nice rifle indeed. I would be very proud if my turk ends up like that. Interesting figure in the wood & nice soft finish. Not glossy. I like the use of the original shroud etc. I only like additions that are from that era like Sauer floorplate release levers and such. Your question throws me. Weren't all Kales Turkish? The 1916 gun was a Kale. It had all the same markings as mine except earlier date and serial number. There were boxes of them @ 69.99 each. Back to the Swede and cock on closing stuff. I read some on this forum about changing actions to cock on open. Other than a DGR, how important is that? What suffers from leaving them as is?

[Horsefly]

Everyone needs a Swede!They're my favorite of all Mousers.My first was a butchered stock but with a nice forged bolt,so sporterizing was easy,but my other 2,a 96 and 38 Husky are way to nice to change.The cock on closing bothers me none at all.That was a fair price for the Swede,especially if it was clean and slick enough it impressed you.Jerry

[NCShooter]

 

If you are thinking about building a swede, you might want to give these

guys a call...Haven't checked to see how many he had left, but if you hurry

you may be able to get one or more. I think several people on this forum

have done business with them.

 

http://www.kebcollc.com/dept.asp?did=4

 

Swedish Mauser reciever, new never used Husqvarna dated in the 1940's

$50ea or 5 for $200 Note: The Recievers were made for use on commercial

hunting rifles during WW II when comercial FN 98 actions were not available

but are identical to the recievers used on the 38 and 96 models

 

Mike

 

[z1r]

No, reciever is just that, the stripped receiver. These NEW receivers will end up costing you well over $200 by the time you buy the Bolt, friring pin, firing pin spring, cocking piece, trigger, trigger pin, bottom metal, ejector, bolt stop housing, bolt stop spring, etc. It will nickle and dime you.

 

Unfortunately, Swede parts do not show up on the secondary market with anywhere near the frequency of 98 parts. Otherwise I would have bought these long ago.

 

Still, not a bad price on a good action but you can probably find a similar deal on a complete rifle and then sell all the take off parts. thus, even if you spend $300 on a complete rifle, the take off parts alone will net you about $150.

[724wd]

two weeks ago i got a flyer from samco, and they are still saying they have barrelled actions for swedes.... around $150-220 or so...

[Guest Guest]

I figured there was a catch, z1r. Otherwise, like you say, you would have bought them all! The guy selling the Swede told me check Samco also. I shouldn't give a rosy red rats a$$ about the 200.00 one if it's my nickle, but that rifle should be owned by someone who wants it as is rather than what I'll do to it.

There'll be others. The 69.99 KKales will be in the same pile next show. 3 weeks. I was the only person looking at them.

The best thing about this is I'm learning something every day.

[Doble Troble]

I wish there was a way for us to do business

 

Walnut,

 

You should look into getting a Curio & Relics FFL license from ATF. I think its still $30, and it pays for itself many times over with discounts from Midway and Brownells, not to mention being able to buy rifles (and handguns) directly from importers.

 

This will also allow you to receive rifles 50 yrs and older from members of this forum. There's a lot of trading that goes on and these guys are a great bunch and have stuff that they want to see appreciated. The C&R license will help allow you to participate.

 

BTW $200 for a nice Swede is a great deal - this is the downside of the 03 FFL - you start buying a bunch of guns.

[mad_jack]

Walnut why are you thinking you need to reheet treat an action unless it's been in a fire, or misstreated by someone that doesn't know how to weld? All the 98's I've built rifles on are just fine, and I've built some heavy hitters, 7 mag., 35whelen imp. all with no problem. The last two I used turk actions. If it were me I'd find the nicest looking actiuon for the least amount of money and get started. And yes the sweeds are very nice, and can be converted to cock on open if need be. I posted some pictures last week or so here of my latest build, my 7-08 imp. and it's on a turk action. Oh one thing to remember about vz-24's is you'll dull a drill bit taping it for a scope mount their so hard, and have to resharpen you lathe bit after tureing the bolt face, but they make good actions as well. I like all mausers, and have fun building rifles out of them.

[Ron J]

Re heat treat is 95% me, 5% Mauser knowledge. 20+ yrs in mfg, exp with various H.T., materials testing and some metallurgy. I'm a Q.A. mgr and inherently lean towards erring on the safe side. From my backround, it seems odd to re-barrel, shoot some type of proof load, check for set back then heat treat if necessary. Gas carburizing is roughly 2X cost of through hardening and 2X the headaches. I have vendors that would do it for nothing, but would not be liable for internal cracks or straightness. $70.00 is really fair for small batch work this critical. I have not made my mind up yet and do value your input. One thing that bothers me is it seems that the area next to the where one of the lugs rests is above the shiny spot. Meaning the shiny area is deeper. Only one though. I have not checked the actual amount with a depth mic yet, but a scriber rides up and down it. Also, I did check hardness on the bolt and the shank is okay. The areas around the lugs, more important, is spotty. Typical of the "pack hardening" methods used many moons ago.

[z1r]

On the upper seat where the extractor slot would be will often have a fin. The metal on either side will wear in and or setback but since the slot does not contact it leaves a raised ridge. Remove the ridge and when you send the receiver in for gas carburising the small anount of setback will usually pooch back out. A quick lapping of the lugs will even things out. Gas carburising as you know is much more advanced than the old pack hardening methods employed when these were made. Warpage is nearly non-existent and no more orange peel effect on the exterior surfaces. The beauty of having these redone is that you know exactly how deep the new skin is so it is not an issue when you do your final lap.

 

Like I said on another site today, anyone that doesn't believe setback is an issue should stop by and check out any one of the dozen or so receivers I have that exhibit it. I love when people say "I've rebarreled a million mausers and never had a problem." Um, sure. That is not to say that many mausers may be fine as-is. But often those in this mindset are the type that like to build cheap mausers as fast as they can in every conceivable caliber. When querried as to how many rounds they actually put through the rifles the answer is self evident. Also, how many of them have actually taken the time to remeasure the headspace? The usual answer is, Well, it hasn't blown up yet so it must be fine, lol.

 

I ask to have the receivers drawn back to about 36C and the bolts about ten points harder. About .020" deep will do.

[Ron J]

We're reading each others minds here. These 98's have everything right in design. I see modern heat treat as a final step toward this rifle starting another decades long lifespan, regardless who owns it. Also, I won't be as concerned about removing material while cleaning it up. I'm only using honing stones and sandpaper, but there's a big vertical step on the back face of the front ring thats got to go. I'm dreaming up a device that locates in the threads and laps the inside face the barrel stops on. Kind of an eccentric disc sort of thing. That should compliment facing the front ring on a threaded mandrel and lapping the bolt face off the threads.

[z1r]

Walnut, I think you will find that the inner face you are talking about is remarkably square.

 

The heat treat methods employed by the germans at the turn of last century was sufficient for the powders of the day. Today's powders burn with more vim. $70 is cheap for peace of mind. I know a guy that wants to bring his .376 steyr by because the guy he had rebarrel it did not reheat treat it and now he has lost confidence in an otherwise fine rifle. Do it now and it will last another century. God I love these mausers!

 

 

[donmarkey]

I'm dreaming up a device that locates in the threads and laps the inside face the barrel stops on. Kind of an eccentric disc sort of thing. That should compliment facing the front ring on a threaded mandrel and lapping the bolt face off the threads.

They're actualy easy to make, there's a pic of one on steve wagner's site and I know a guy that makes them with a lug lapping plunger also for $30.

-Don

[Ron J]

I assume all metal work, drill & tap, safety replacement..etc should be done before heat treat correct? Another thing I believe z1r posted some time back is that material with a better hardness polishes better. I can vouch for that after many mount and polish specimens I've made for metallurgical exam. Don, I have Wagners page saved. Thanks for the reminder. I've got about 2 square inches of this thing cleaned up. At this rate I should be able to post a progress picture for the holidays.

Notice I didn't commit to which holiday!

[donmarkey]

I assume all metal work, drill & tap, safety replacement..etc should be done before heat treat correct? Another thing I believe z1r posted some time back is that material with a better hardness polishes better. I can vouch for that after many mount and polish specimens I've made for metallurgical exam. Don, I have Wagners page saved. Thanks for the reminder. I've got about 2 square inches of this thing cleaned up. At this rate I should be able to post a progress picture for the holidays.

Notice I didn't commit to which holiday!

I haven't ran into one out of square yet, I just use you to clean it up mostly. Do everything you can before heat treat, that way you can anneal it and machine away with hss tools not carbide. I'm trying to get a couple done to send in myself. I told myself I'd be done for deer season, oh well there's next year.

-Don

[Ron J]

Yep z1r, you're right. There's a small hump in the recess where the slot in that lug lines up. It's the other recess thats higher than the shiny spot! They both sunk in a bit.

Don, my thoughts exactly. Just smoothen the face up a bit. It had contact all the way around with the other barrel.